Refused to fly, boss is not happy
This happens in Europe too.
My first "airline" job was with a small company operating 15 seaters on scheduled routes. Of the four aircraft on the fleet all four had no-go defects on de-icing or IFR conditions (wx radar or AI u/s). Three of them had two or more of these defects. One I think had three. They all continued to fly for the 3 months I lasted before I was sacked for having the temerity to list the fleet's malfunctions (2 pages of typed A4) and handing it to the chief "engineer".
We even had experienced ex RAF pilots going along with this!
My first "airline" job was with a small company operating 15 seaters on scheduled routes. Of the four aircraft on the fleet all four had no-go defects on de-icing or IFR conditions (wx radar or AI u/s). Three of them had two or more of these defects. One I think had three. They all continued to fly for the 3 months I lasted before I was sacked for having the temerity to list the fleet's malfunctions (2 pages of typed A4) and handing it to the chief "engineer".
We even had experienced ex RAF pilots going along with this!
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seriously? If you’re not aware that cultural differences exist then you really need to get out and see the world ! We’re not all some homogenous global culture where we all think the same.
If you’re a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (I’m using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.
If you’re a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (I’m using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.
And to quote you, "we're not some homogenous global culture where we all think the same" is absolutely true. Asia like Europe is a huge continent of different cultures, languages and races. Adding aviation into the mix, different Asian airlines have different standards, cockpit cultures. Some have a better safety record than others. The same can be said for European carriers as well. Imagine if I use the same assumptions from the OP to say all Europeans have the same mentality.
That was 100 million years ago and the Western aviation world has learned from it. Asia (and not only them) seem to still be stuck with these characters and that's why the next crash is just waiting to happen. Reality sucks!
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What is your airline experience level? Haven't aviation taught you not to ASSUME? I've worked for numerous airlines in Asia with multinational crew from all continents in my close to 30 year career to confidently say that I've seen competent and those who are less so in both Asian as well as Western pilots.
-Us Bangla Flight 211
-TransAsia Flight 235
Take a minute and find similarities.
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What is your airline experience level? Haven't aviation taught you not to ASSUME? I've worked for numerous airlines in Asia with multinational crew from all continents in my close to 30 year career to confidently say that I've seen competent and those who are less so in both Asian as well as Western pilots.
And to quote you, "we're not some homogenous global culture where we all think the same" is absolutely true. Asia like Europe is a huge continent of different cultures, languages and races. Adding aviation into the mix, different Asian airlines have different standards, cockpit cultures. Some have a better safety record than others. The same can be said for European carriers as well. Imagine if I use the same assumptions from the OP to say all Europeans have the same mentality.
And to quote you, "we're not some homogenous global culture where we all think the same" is absolutely true. Asia like Europe is a huge continent of different cultures, languages and races. Adding aviation into the mix, different Asian airlines have different standards, cockpit cultures. Some have a better safety record than others. The same can be said for European carriers as well. Imagine if I use the same assumptions from the OP to say all Europeans have the same mentality.
I referred to different cultures and different cultures alone, which you’ve acknowledged exists. do everyone a favour and stop threatening the R word , it closes down discussion and doesn’t do anyone any favors.
I have had to abandon many a flight due weather. But your approach is very important. Simply stating "it's shit, we aint going" will not do you any favours.
I have always made a point of stating "my job is to get you to your destination safely sir"
When that is not a certainty I tell him.
Get him/her/them relaxed in the lounge with refreshments and then leave them stating "I'm off to see what I can do."
You return with "we go now/ we go in an hour/we cannot go."
'Never had a problem or arguement.
If they take issue with you it's because they don't respect you.
Show them who is boss!
I have always made a point of stating "my job is to get you to your destination safely sir"
When that is not a certainty I tell him.
Get him/her/them relaxed in the lounge with refreshments and then leave them stating "I'm off to see what I can do."
You return with "we go now/ we go in an hour/we cannot go."
'Never had a problem or arguement.
If they take issue with you it's because they don't respect you.
Show them who is boss!
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Hahaha.
It was not like I locked airplane and went home without saying anything. We had a small argument but eventually they gave up pushing me. It was perfectly doable for jet or turboprop if it had prop heat and sharp pilots. But really I could't afford the risk as we were staying home close to 3 month and straight from home to thunderstorms at night with no prop heat was too much. As I got more experience I now understand my limitations. I am no Chuck Yeager as I thought I was a decade ago. Airplanes are just a thing to get you from A to B safe and fast. I don't see any reasons why should airline/corporate pilots push the envelope to see where that "old demon lives".
It was not like I locked airplane and went home without saying anything. We had a small argument but eventually they gave up pushing me. It was perfectly doable for jet or turboprop if it had prop heat and sharp pilots. But really I could't afford the risk as we were staying home close to 3 month and straight from home to thunderstorms at night with no prop heat was too much. As I got more experience I now understand my limitations. I am no Chuck Yeager as I thought I was a decade ago. Airplanes are just a thing to get you from A to B safe and fast. I don't see any reasons why should airline/corporate pilots push the envelope to see where that "old demon lives".
I am no Chuck Yeager as I thought I was a decade ago
Hand out copies of Peter Garrisons "Aftermath" column in Flying every month
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If the aircraft in its condition is not approved for FIKI, and there are widespread and unavoidable icing conditions along the route of flight, then you legally can't depart, period. Don't see the big issue with this.
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If the aircraft has an MEL then that is the yes/no discriminator, from a legal perspective. If the aircraft is not certified for flight into known icing then again no go. Apart from that it is the "judgement" of the PIC. That is what a PIC is paid for, that is an intrinsic part, or should I say art? of the job. Remember that professional pilots do need to fly with bad weather conditions from time to time, It's a part of the job. If you are prepared only to fly in nice weather then you are a PPL, with the option to walk away.
If it is `the Boss`s` personal aircraft ,then you explain that it is unserviceable and until it is fixed correctly,he will find it may go through the same problems again; and if there should be an accident,he may be accountable....
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If the aircraft has an MEL then that is the yes/no discriminator, from a legal perspective. If the aircraft is not certified for flight into known icing then again no go. Apart from that it is the "judgement" of the PIC. That is what a PIC is paid for, that is an intrinsic part, or should I say art? of the job. Remember that professional pilots do need to fly with bad weather conditions from time to time, It's a part of the job. If you are prepared only to fly in nice weather then you are a PPL, with the option to walk away.
I am very grateful to all who contributed in this topic. Its a great support and I feel more confident. I got a salary today so I guess I am not fired yet.
I will do additional CRM training with my colleagues and all should be fine. I never mentioned all my colleagues are ex military. Very good handling of aircraft but safety judgement is different. Not bad, but different.
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I once flew as a freelancer on a unfamiliar KingAir 200 on relatively short notice. So I went though a very thorough pre flight check and made doubly sure to do all the REQUIRED checks (Rudder boost, de-Ice, prop anti ice, feathering, auto feather ectetc.)... done and just wanted to give ATC the "ready" call, when I felt the owners hand on my shoulder: "what are you doing, don´t you know to fly this airplane, my pilot never does these things, blablabla...") I asked him: "do you want to fly or not ?" to which he said yes. (the A/C was a-okay, everything worked)
WTF ? You want me to take off despite the fact you really don´t think I´m capable to fly your aircraft ?
Thats now almost 20 years ago and I still wonder what on earth goes through the mind of some of our fellow aviators and especially passengers...
A mindset of "I´m better" is deeply engrained in a lot of military aviation folks. My best guess is that it is part of the required skills/mindset in this part of aviation and a Martin Baker underneath you certainly alters how you perceive risk. "They" are certainly "mission minded". But then, so are a lot of non-military guys....
Going through ice in a turbo prop with out prop anti ice is simply asking for it. (I have enough hours in KingAirs to make this statement IMO) Your decision - if your account is accurate - was correct IMHO.
WTF ? You want me to take off despite the fact you really don´t think I´m capable to fly your aircraft ?
Thats now almost 20 years ago and I still wonder what on earth goes through the mind of some of our fellow aviators and especially passengers...
I never mentioned all my colleagues are ex military. Very good handling of aircraft but safety judgement is different. Not bad, but different.
Going through ice in a turbo prop with out prop anti ice is simply asking for it. (I have enough hours in KingAirs to make this statement IMO) Your decision - if your account is accurate - was correct IMHO.
Last edited by His dudeness; 9th Sep 2023 at 14:06.
You might have seemed to a non pilot that you were "fussing" too much, which might have seemed to him that you were unsure of what you were doing - perhaps his normal pilot did the pre-flight checks in the hangar or well before the owner got to the aircraft? Or maybe his normal pilot did not use a paper checklist, so seeing you use one might have made him think you were reading an instruction manual !!
Airline passengers do not see all the pre-flight checks that we and the engineers do. In smaller GA aircraft, where the passengers sit in the same cabin as the pilot(s), they can observe a lot of what goes on. To a non pilot, pre-flight checks might seem excessive - car drivers don't check every external light, warning light; fluid level; or perform a walk-around every time they drive their car. But of course, we cannot pull over and park on a cloud if anything is wrong !
I have never flown GA, but I guess it would come down to "managing expectations" of rich owners, and maybe keeping a lot of what goes on out of their sight to avoid worrying them ?
Airline passengers do not see all the pre-flight checks that we and the engineers do. In smaller GA aircraft, where the passengers sit in the same cabin as the pilot(s), they can observe a lot of what goes on. To a non pilot, pre-flight checks might seem excessive - car drivers don't check every external light, warning light; fluid level; or perform a walk-around every time they drive their car. But of course, we cannot pull over and park on a cloud if anything is wrong !
I have never flown GA, but I guess it would come down to "managing expectations" of rich owners, and maybe keeping a lot of what goes on out of their sight to avoid worrying them ?
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You can´t check most things I listed without the engines running. I was then proficient enough to go through these items within a very short time. But it involves "revving up" and is sort of noisy. Of course I talked with the regular pilot later and he just never did these checks "because the boss is a nervous flyer".
