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Refused to fly, boss is not happy

Old 3rd Sep 2023, 21:24
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Refused to fly, boss is not happy

Hello all,

Wanted to ask your thoughts.
Given scenario:
5 hour long flight on an airplane with malfunctioning propeller de-ice.
Pilots been on vacation for 2.5 month.
Night flight in IMC with embd thunderstorms and heavy showers for departure that were not forecasted until morning ,but forecast was wrong and flashes and rain seen everywhere. High probability of entering CB welder as airspace is very limited and surrounded by mountains.
No gps coverage for first hour of flight and no xm weather. But vectors provided for terrain clearance and onboard radar is good.
Boss has a very important meeting and already at the terminal waiting for boarding call.
Two captain flying, one is pic and other is sic. Pic decided to cancel the flight until weather clears up (24 hours wait), sic just complied but would take the risk if pic decided to go.
What would you do if you were in similar scenario? Is it a perfect case for cheese model or its just pilot cowardice?




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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 22:00
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Sounds like a hiring scenario for a new job
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 23:41
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My decision making SOP for any given flight:
Ass, License, Job in that order.
It got me fired from one job, but I don't regret the decision to not fly that day.
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 23:42
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"pilot cowardice" what a despicable thing to say! 🙄
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 03:19
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Originally Posted by Luray
Hello all,

Wanted to ask your thoughts.
Given scenario:
5 hour long flight on an airplane with malfunctioning propeller de-ice.
Pilots been on vacation for 2.5 month.
Night flight in IMC with embd thunderstorms and heavy showers for departure that were not forecasted until morning ,but forecast was wrong and flashes and rain seen everywhere. High probability of entering CB welder as airspace is very limited and surrounded by mountains.
No gps coverage for first hour of flight and no xm weather. But vectors provided for terrain clearance and onboard radar is good.
Boss has a very important meeting and already at the terminal waiting for boarding call.
Two captain flying, one is pic and other is sic. Pic decided to cancel the flight until weather clears up (24 hours wait), sic just complied but would take the risk if pic decided to go.
What would you do if you were in similar scenario? Is it a perfect case for cheese model or its just pilot cowardice?
We get paid to say No.

I do apologize for your inconvenience however you pay me to say No.

Then shake his hand and walk away, put the engine covers on and the plane to bed.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 10:09
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It also sounds like the SIC in this scenario is in fact the Thread Starter. Right?
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 11:23
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
It also sounds like the SIC in this scenario is in fact the Thread Starter. Right?
Nope. Pressure was so high I had to spill it out here. Today no one talks to me and other pilots see me as a sissy. Btw I am talking about asian mentality so for them I look like a coward. They rather die than say NO.
I am ok flying with a broken lav or inop flash light, but when a critical system inop my answer is NO. I just donít understand why some pilots feel ok to gamble with death.

Last edited by Luray; 4th Sep 2023 at 11:43.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 11:54
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Does the aircraft have an MEL?

Sounds like an obvious no-go.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 12:22
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Originally Posted by Luray
Nope. Pressure was so high I had to spill it out here. Today no one talks to me and other pilots see me as a sissy. Btw I am talking about asian mentality so for them I look like a coward. They rather die than say NO.
I am ok flying with a broken lav or inop flash light, but when a critical system inop my answer is NO. I just donít understand why some pilots feel ok to gamble with death.
Asian mentality? Pray tell what you meant by it? Go ahead, I'll give you a chance before calling you the R word.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 12:32
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In Safety, In Comfort, On Time, IN THAT ORDER
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 15:26
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Originally Posted by Luray
Nope. Pressure was so high I had to spill it out here. Today no one talks to me and other pilots see me as a sissy. Btw I am talking about asian mentality so for them I look like a coward. They rather die than say NO.
I am ok flying with a broken lav or inop flash light, but when a critical system inop my answer is NO. I just don’t understand why some pilots feel ok to gamble with death.
Wow, you had some balls. You should have added the detail about "Asia" in your first post. Now everything is a bit clearer. You probably did the right thing. Time to change company - if they treat you like this, they are a bunch of.... I heard that Air Baltic is looking for pilots.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 16:39
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Originally Posted by ACJDriver
Asian mentality? Pray tell what you meant by it? Go ahead, I'll give you a chance before calling you the R word.
seriously? If youíre not aware that cultural differences exist then you really need to get out and see the world ! Weíre not all some homogenous global culture where we all think the same.

If youíre a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (Iím using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.

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Old 4th Sep 2023, 18:52
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Originally Posted by zuluzuluzulu
seriously? If youíre not aware that cultural differences exist then you really need to get out and see the world ! Weíre not all some homogenous global culture where we all think the same.

If youíre a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (Iím using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.
Totally agree. Its not about race, its about upbringing and local traditions that helped people survive for centuries but can be very dangerous in high tech environment like airplanes.
I remember asking my former colleague why is he ok risking his life and he told me - "god will protect me".
But I am not worried about it much since we enforce CRM and guys/girls are getting better every day. But business executives are totally different creatures, they live in their own world and when it comes to risk vs profit they won't stop at anything. Look at recent implosion of Titan submersible. They knew the risk but it didn't stop them.

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Old 4th Sep 2023, 20:41
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Peer pressure has resulted in many high profile fatal accidents over the years, yet time and time again it keeps happening, ultimately the final decision maker should be the pilot, end of!
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 22:56
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Originally Posted by Luray
Hello all,

Wanted to ask your thoughts.
Given scenario:
5 hour long flight on an airplane with malfunctioning propeller de-ice.
Pilots been on vacation for 2.5 month.
Night flight in IMC with embd thunderstorms and heavy showers for departure that were not forecasted until morning ,but forecast was wrong and flashes and rain seen everywhere. High probability of entering CB welder as airspace is very limited and surrounded by mountains.
No gps coverage for first hour of flight and no xm weather. But vectors provided for terrain clearance and onboard radar is good.
Boss has a very important meeting and already at the terminal waiting for boarding call.
Two captain flying, one is pic and other is sic. Pic decided to cancel the flight until weather clears up (24 hours wait), sic just complied but would take the risk if pic decided to go.
What would you do if you were in similar scenario? Is it a perfect case for cheese model or its just pilot cowardice?
Assuming the MEL prohibits flights into known icing conditions and the given conditions assume a chance of icing I don't see why your boss wants to take the risk. There are many ways in GA to explain to the company/customers what you are prepared to do and what is off limits. Like CRM in the cockpit your arguments and the means of communication is the key to get everybody's nod.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 23:15
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Originally Posted by Proline21
Assuming the MEL prohibits flights into known icing conditions and the given conditions assume a chance of icing I don't see why your boss wants to take the risk. There are many ways in GA to explain to the company/customers what you are prepared to do and what is off limits. Like CRM in the cockpit your arguments and the means of communication is the key to get everybody's nod.
There is no MEL. Its an owners GA high performance turboprop. There is still a POH that forbids flight in to known icing in case of system malfunction. I never had a propeller icing ,only on the ground before moving to a deicing stand and it was shaky. What happens in the air in case of prop Ice i know from the books and it would be fun to loose climb performance inside a СB cloud at night in the mountains I explained to the owner that it was dangerous.. really dangerous and he agreed to cancel the flight, but shit. It felt like pulling 30g's
___
nomorehelosforme
I agree that pressure is the worst thing, IF shitty weather feeling lasts only as long as you are inside of it . Peer pressure lasts for days and makes you feel bad and guilty for long time.
Nevertheless , if I travel back in time I would still cancel that flight over and over again. Its better to be fired than kill everyone onboard.
I hope there are still bizjet companies left that appreciate pilots decision not to fly.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 00:20
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Better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground .
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 03:49
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Local young pilot rostered to fly a freight flight, rang the chief pilot to say he was cancelling because of forecast thunder storms, chief pilot took the flight and broke up in the storms, one less airframe on the line and a new chief pilot required as he had just cashed his chips. Some times experience can lead one down dark alleys. Not comfortable? Say NO.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 09:33
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Originally Posted by Luray
There is no MEL. Its an owners GA high performance turboprop. There is still a POH that forbids flight in to known icing in case of system malfunction. I never had a propeller icing ,only on the ground before moving to a deicing stand and it was shaky. What happens in the air in case of prop Ice i know from the books and it would be fun to loose climb performance inside a СB cloud at night in the mountains
I explained to the owner that it was dangerous.. really dangerous and he agreed to cancel the flight, but shit. It felt like pulling 30g's

nomorehelosforme
I agree that pressure is the worst thing, IF shitty weather feeling lasts only as long as you are inside of it . Peer pressure lasts for days and makes you feel bad and guilty for long time.
Nevertheless , if I travel back in time I would still cancel that flight over and over again. Its better to be fired than kill everyone onboard.

I hope there are still bizjet companies left that appreciate pilots decision not to fly.;
Your boss agreed to cancel the flight on your advice re weather, so where is the problem? If your boss really needed to be at that meeting, S/he would have had a contingency plan, such as going the day before or via surface travel.

Your boss has no knowledge or understanding of icing or bad weather in an aviation context. Worst weather s/he has ever seen in a transport context will have been a heavy downpour on the motorway, where the cars slowed down but kept going. S/he has no concept of propeller or wing icing and the severe performance consequences.

For similar future situations, maybe keep a copy of the relevant limitation pages of the FCOM or Operating manual; where it talks about flight in bad weather, and give that to your boss to read. Then s/he can see it is not you being "chicken", but the manufacturer's limitation, or prohibition. You might also say something along the lines of: "It is prohibited to fly this aircraft in these conditions, and If I did I would lose my licence." Talking about legalities should help because it is not you being restrictive, it is the law, and s/he cannot argue with the law. (If s/he does, walk away.)

As I understand it, the aircraft had weather radar? So you could have avoided CBs and turned back if required?

You should never fly into a CB, or even anywhere near one. Airliners generally avoid CBs by 5-10nm.

You talk about climb performance inside a CB - you cannot out-climb a CB, and nor should you ever try, I am sure you know all that.

.

Last edited by Uplinker; 5th Sep 2023 at 10:14.
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 10:17
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Originally Posted by Uplinker
Your boss agreed to cancel the flight on your advice re weather, so where is the problem?
I understood that the other pilots in this company are snuffing him now for being a coward or for saying no to the big boss, which is unheard of in many Asian places. You do as you are told.
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