Fine for deviation in Noise abatement procedure, who pays?

[Cecco]

Out of LSZH, crew climbed too shallow
on departure. In the end, a fine of 10'000 CHF had to be paid for failing
to follow the published climb procedure. The flight concerned was in an AOC, the Company wanted the commander to Pay the fine. He refused and now they are going to Court. I'm wondering how far the commander's responsibility is stretched in such cases?

[Miles Magister]

Who is responsible

It will be interesting to hear from a legally qualified chap on here but, as a layman, whilst previously managing companies I always considered the company to be responsible for an employee's actions whilst performing their employed duties. This is why retail companies are held liable when check out operators are rude to customers or make sexist or racist remarks. I would expect the company to prosecuted for the payment of the fine, then internal disciplinary actions within the company are a different matter. However it may be illegal under employment law of the country where the person is employed for money to be deducted from their wages without their consent.

Either way I think the pilots concerned will probably be looking for a new job.

MM

[galaxy flyer]

Assuming the company's directives directed compliance with all requirements (usually a very broad statement) and training in flying noise procedures were accomplished; the pilot could be on the hook--the pilot, by failing to comply, was operating outside the company's procedures, they are "in business for themself" as an old ailrline rule was stated.


GF

[what next]

Originally Posted by Cecco

In the end, a fine of 10'000 CHF had to be paid...

That sounds very expensive to me. I know of at least two such occurrences at Zürich within my company and the fines were 1,000 CHF each time, paid by the company. I am not aware of any disciplinary actions against the crews involved - but those things are not done openly, and as long as the parties involved do not talk about it no one will ever know.
In my previous company I once flew into a military airspace whilst involved in aerial work and was fined 1000 Euros which I had to pay myself. I didn't argue about it because it was clearly my own stupid mistake.

[safelife]

My company normally pays (or negotiates it's way out of it), but it's considered a courtesy. PIC legally responsible.
Loss Coms aren't cheap either.

[noneya]

First of all if they paid the fine especially the full 10,000 Euro, then they are either repeat offenders or they were very disrespectful to the authorities.

And there is no way the Captain will be forced to pay the fine by the courts. The company is untimely responsible for their aircraft on the LOA's etc as well as financially responsible... Does the Captain have to pay the FBO if the company doesn't? I think not!

Sure they can punish the Captain internally, not monetary I am sure. Even a firing of the captain would be difficult, if he didn't want to leave. All the Captain has to say it was a safety of flight issue and no one can do anything.

Good luck getting blood from a turnip!!!!

j

[what next]

Originally Posted by noneya

And there is no way the Captain will be forced to pay the fine by the courts.

Very difficult topic and also country specific I guess. Out of curiosity I did some research. In my country (Germany) drivers of lorries have been convicted by courts for paying their fines for speeding or violating duty time regulations. However drivers of parcel delivery vans did not have to pay their parking tickets, because it was "in the interest of the company" to drive as close to the customer site as possible, even if that meant parking in a forbidden zone.

Violating the noise abatement rules in Zürich can hardly be the interest of the company (unless it results in a shortcut saving more than those 10,000 CHF...) so a German court would most probably rule in favor of the company and against the captain.