EASA Lic for N Reg pilots domiciled EU.
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More interestingly re the above comment.....
If the UK CAA do decide to delay until the next year....where does it leave all of us with licences that want to fly to say, France or any other EU state that has already enforced the regulation, if we are flying on an FAA ATP/CPL/PPL????!
We've all been flying across the EU since other EU states already made the Third Country Licence Validation rubbish, a requirement.....would we fail a ramp check? What could they do about it? I'm still half convinced that telling an FAA pilot, with a current 61.58 on a type he/she flies, with insurance, medical etc etc, that he/she can't fly out of an EU airfield anymore is illegal. How would it stand up in court? What can they do if I tell them to blow it out of their
?!
I asked the CAA.....their guy wrote to me (after calling me and speaking to me about my set up) and essentially said "Well....we would be really cross....and err....you just can't....and....we would impound your bosses aircraft!!" Yeah right pal....like to see how that works for you, when my Russian billionaire boss gets told he can't take off in his plane that is legal in every respect in the eyes of the authority that its registered to, the FAA and the crew all hold the correct, full, current ratings etc!!
Im actually sitting here, looking forward to sitting my final 61.58 sim session tomorrow, immediately followed by a frigging EASA LST, just in case those arses make me go ahead and get a validation!!! What a frigging farce....how about i send the bill for it to the CAA?!!
If the UK CAA do decide to delay until the next year....where does it leave all of us with licences that want to fly to say, France or any other EU state that has already enforced the regulation, if we are flying on an FAA ATP/CPL/PPL????!
We've all been flying across the EU since other EU states already made the Third Country Licence Validation rubbish, a requirement.....would we fail a ramp check? What could they do about it? I'm still half convinced that telling an FAA pilot, with a current 61.58 on a type he/she flies, with insurance, medical etc etc, that he/she can't fly out of an EU airfield anymore is illegal. How would it stand up in court? What can they do if I tell them to blow it out of their
?!I asked the CAA.....their guy wrote to me (after calling me and speaking to me about my set up) and essentially said "Well....we would be really cross....and err....you just can't....and....we would impound your bosses aircraft!!" Yeah right pal....like to see how that works for you, when my Russian billionaire boss gets told he can't take off in his plane that is legal in every respect in the eyes of the authority that its registered to, the FAA and the crew all hold the correct, full, current ratings etc!!
Im actually sitting here, looking forward to sitting my final 61.58 sim session tomorrow, immediately followed by a frigging EASA LST, just in case those arses make me go ahead and get a validation!!! What a frigging farce....how about i send the bill for it to the CAA?!!
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As long as your aircraft documentation is in order from your state of aircraft registry then a ramp check cannot penalise you. Their remit is to check state of registry documents, nothing more, even states that in their guidance notes. I would save your money on the LST.
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Thanks folks......however.....i dont have an EASA Part FCL. I'm an FAA guy and my understanding is, that for me to get a validation, based on my FAA, then any types i am current on, on my FAA, need to be added to a validation, by way of an LST??
Incidentally, FlightSafety havent got a clue about all the changing reg's or Third Country licensing etc......its a complete mess here. Also, the guy doing the LST is one of these Easa examiners, in a third country that doesnt actually have an easa licence, but a validation to issue initial and ongoing types to an easa licence. If it wasnt my livelihood, rather than cry, I would just laugh.
Roll on the safety agreement for all licences.....
Incidentally, FlightSafety havent got a clue about all the changing reg's or Third Country licensing etc......its a complete mess here. Also, the guy doing the LST is one of these Easa examiners, in a third country that doesnt actually have an easa licence, but a validation to issue initial and ongoing types to an easa licence. If it wasnt my livelihood, rather than cry, I would just laugh.
Roll on the safety agreement for all licences.....
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Further.....do you really, think I should tell them to stick the LST and come home a day earlier....I was after all, away all the school holidays, in my "rostered off" period??? I mean, the delay in the requirement looks to me like it will be put back another year.....just the CAA have failed to read that particular piece of paper and publish it, surely?
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UAM
I am with you all the way on this. I am reliably informed that given enough money there is enough now to make a legal challenge in the EU courts against this ridiculous charade of dual licensing but sadly enough money is the key words
Pace
I am with you all the way on this. I am reliably informed that given enough money there is enough now to make a legal challenge in the EU courts against this ridiculous charade of dual licensing but sadly enough money is the key words
Pace
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Thanks folks......however.....i dont have an EASA Part FCL. I'm an FAA guy and my understanding is, that for me to get a validation, based on my FAA, then any types i am current on, on my FAA, need to be added to a validation, by way of an LST??
You need to look at CAA IN-2016/036
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalap...detail&id=7305
Last edited by Hawker 800; 8th Apr 2016 at 10:44.
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if ever, for biz jet guys.
The expected agreement with the USA is for PPL stuff only hence the regulations will become legal only for PPL stuff and not for commercial until a BASA is agreed on commercial
They have not delayed for six years for nothing and certainly not for their kindness and understanding of us pilots
The whole thing is a shambolic mess and a legal minefield
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Hawker 800.....not correct. the validation process has been in place for a long time. HOWEVER...its a temp validation, useful for a year from issue and, can be extended once, if you can demonstrate that you have started and are attempting to complete the ground school exams that, may not have kept you alive up until now if you are an FAA guy, but certainly will, once you have an EASA ticket, apparently :roll eyes:
The validation involves proving you have an FAA ticket, demonstrating 1500 hours of multi crew time, a Class 1 EASA Medical being issued and also, an LST, on the type you want to fly if you want it added to your validation. I meet all this criteria, but have to do the LST (still planned for today unless I see a doc confirming the delay until 2017 from the CAA), which is valid for 6 months and would add my current type to my licence.
I originally started flying as a demo/sales pilot for an American manufacturer, who didn't even have the EASA Type Cert on their aircraft at the time and so I needed an American licence to fly their aircraft. I never bothered with the EASA ticket because my intention was never to fly for a living....but one thing followed another and here I am, 11 years later....rated in 4 types (3 multi crew) and am staring down the barrel of no job, just having got a mortgage, 2 small children, a little bit of credit card debt, a car on lease etc etc. Pace....I am very happy to fight the EU/EASA on this. I do believe that the last time this all reared its head, a group of people with a bit more cash were getting together and had made noises directly at EASA re suing them for this illegal rule change and actually, the argument against the establishment, seemed to hold water, from a legal standpoint too. However, that seems to have gone quiet for us Pro licence holders...who arguably, despite more rigorous and regimented training and recurrent checks (if we are typed on larger, complex, multi crew, multi engine aircraft), are being looked at, AFTER the (in some cases) recreational, bimble around airways in little piston, leisure pilots?! I know of ONE guy who is a very wealthy, UK based FAA pilot, who owns his own 3 holer, who is prepared to fight EASA (and is doing so)...but he keeps himself to himself I think. I know another owner pilot, who i used to fly with who has STACKS of cash, but who is just burying his head in the sand and doing, nothing, in the hope he doesn't get caught, or that he has enough money to fight it if he is. Doesn't help the rest of us.
I'm all up for having the right to fly for fun etc (and I still do myself when I can)....but they should be looking at Third Country Licensing as a whole, not deal with the "well heeled", leisure folks who, more often than not, have their income and livelihoods firmly planted in a different industry altogether.
Us "third country simpletons" (a phrase one guy sed re FAA licences!!) need to stand together....no matter what licence we hold. The FAA over here (I'm in USA right now) haven't got any idea really, that the EASA are implementing these restrictions on us....one senior guy said that EASA couldn't stop an FAA pilot flying anywhere as long as he has the FAA ducks in a row...."...none of their Goddamned business!" he said!!
Sorry....rattled on....you can maybe tell I'm passionate about this?!
:roll eyes:The validation involves proving you have an FAA ticket, demonstrating 1500 hours of multi crew time, a Class 1 EASA Medical being issued and also, an LST, on the type you want to fly if you want it added to your validation. I meet all this criteria, but have to do the LST (still planned for today unless I see a doc confirming the delay until 2017 from the CAA), which is valid for 6 months and would add my current type to my licence.
I originally started flying as a demo/sales pilot for an American manufacturer, who didn't even have the EASA Type Cert on their aircraft at the time and so I needed an American licence to fly their aircraft. I never bothered with the EASA ticket because my intention was never to fly for a living....but one thing followed another and here I am, 11 years later....rated in 4 types (3 multi crew) and am staring down the barrel of no job, just having got a mortgage, 2 small children, a little bit of credit card debt, a car on lease etc etc. Pace....I am very happy to fight the EU/EASA on this. I do believe that the last time this all reared its head, a group of people with a bit more cash were getting together and had made noises directly at EASA re suing them for this illegal rule change and actually, the argument against the establishment, seemed to hold water, from a legal standpoint too. However, that seems to have gone quiet for us Pro licence holders...who arguably, despite more rigorous and regimented training and recurrent checks (if we are typed on larger, complex, multi crew, multi engine aircraft), are being looked at, AFTER the (in some cases) recreational, bimble around airways in little piston, leisure pilots?! I know of ONE guy who is a very wealthy, UK based FAA pilot, who owns his own 3 holer, who is prepared to fight EASA (and is doing so)...but he keeps himself to himself I think. I know another owner pilot, who i used to fly with who has STACKS of cash, but who is just burying his head in the sand and doing, nothing, in the hope he doesn't get caught, or that he has enough money to fight it if he is. Doesn't help the rest of us.
I'm all up for having the right to fly for fun etc (and I still do myself when I can)....but they should be looking at Third Country Licensing as a whole, not deal with the "well heeled", leisure folks who, more often than not, have their income and livelihoods firmly planted in a different industry altogether.
Us "third country simpletons" (a phrase one guy sed re FAA licences!!) need to stand together....no matter what licence we hold. The FAA over here (I'm in USA right now) haven't got any idea really, that the EASA are implementing these restrictions on us....one senior guy said that EASA couldn't stop an FAA pilot flying anywhere as long as he has the FAA ducks in a row...."...none of their Goddamned business!" he said!!
Sorry....rattled on....you can maybe tell I'm passionate about this?!
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The validation involves proving you have an FAA ticket, demonstrating 1500 hours of multi crew time, a Class 1 EASA Medical being issued and also, an LST, on the type you want to fly if you want it added to your validation. I meet all this criteria, but have to do the LST (still planned for today unless I see a doc confirming the delay until 2017 from the CAA), which is valid for 6 months and would add my current type to my licence.
Just a correction to the above you are referring to a validation to fly public transport not private! So if you are only flying private jets which are not public transport the above does not apply 100% sure
So someone has given you incorrect information and needless money expenditure unless you want a validation for public transport
I am hoping for confirmation today but my understanding is the whole 3 rd country regulations are dependent on a BASA with the 3rd countries and this is governed by international laws and agreements and not just EU law hence the six year delays achieving a BASA. There is a fly in the legal soup the one won't go without the other. If that is the case and don't read it as gospel yet it could be some considerable time before a BASA is achieved on commercial stuff its taken long enough on PPL stuff
the chaos at present is the usual EU incompetence
Last edited by Pace; 8th Apr 2016 at 13:56.
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Precisely Pace.
I am not aware of anyone involved in private biz jets thats ever succeeded in gaining an EASA validation based on a US certificate. It's a waste of his money. Let's hope he's not in the sweat box right now doing a pointless EASA LST based upon some not so (understandably) knowledgable FSI EASA validated examiner's advice.
I am not aware of anyone involved in private biz jets thats ever succeeded in gaining an EASA validation based on a US certificate. It's a waste of his money. Let's hope he's not in the sweat box right now doing a pointless EASA LST based upon some not so (understandably) knowledgable FSI EASA validated examiner's advice.
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The validation involves proving you have an FAA ticket, demonstrating 1500 hours of multi crew time, a Class 1 EASA Medical being issued and also, an LST, on the type you want to fly if you want it added to your validation. I meet all this criteria, but have to do the LST (still planned for today unless I see a doc confirming the delay until 2017 from the CAA), which is valid for 6 months and would add my current type to my licence.
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there is also dispensation for some of the exams based on experience.
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Sorry....just been finishing off my 61.58 in the rocking box!! AND doing a load of extra for the LST, which I have to sit (according to my Chief Pilot) ...."...in case I need to get a validation issued by the CAA, so I can keep flying a year more..."!!
There is no dispensation re exams Above The Clouds.....none. You have to do them all. Easy to say "Do the exams..."....but try, part time, with kids, job, yarda yarda...!! There are a shed load of bright sparks, out of Uni.....full time at Bristol and Oxford etc, that are failing....a lot more than you think....!!
Prove to me that the exams will make me a better pilot and I will find a way....but they won't....its bull
Pace.... do you think that, because of the BASA being so far away, that the delay will keep happening year on year, or do you think they will ground all of us, useless, dangerous FAA pilots and then say in 4 years time "Oh...if you real now, we will let you have a validation?!"
for the LST, which I have to sit (according to my Chief Pilot) ...."...in case I need to get a validation issued by the CAA, so I can keep flying a year more..."!!There is no dispensation re exams Above The Clouds.....none. You have to do them all. Easy to say "Do the exams..."....but try, part time, with kids, job, yarda yarda...!! There are a shed load of bright sparks, out of Uni.....full time at Bristol and Oxford etc, that are failing....a lot more than you think....!!
Prove to me that the exams will make me a better pilot and I will find a way....but they won't....its bull
Pace.... do you think that, because of the BASA being so far away, that the delay will keep happening year on year, or do you think they will ground all of us, useless, dangerous FAA pilots and then say in 4 years time "Oh...if you real now, we will let you have a validation?!"
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Even Bristol have complained about the low pass rates for the EASA ground studies for ATP and their complaints ignored
If you are a working pilot with family commitments what are you expected to do? Take six months off to do a full time course? Will your job still be there at the end I doubt it or maybe do distant learning for 1 to 2 years again tricky with Job and family commitments.
its hard to be motivated to do all that study just to do what you are doing perfectly safely weekly anyway.
As for you should know it anyway? I was speaking to an EASA ATP who told me if he sat the exams tomorrow there is no way he would pass its short term recollective stuff.
I am not sure and waiting on confirmation but if its true that the six year deferments are due to a fly in the legality of the EASA regulations which will require a BASA due to International laws and agreements to be legal then I cannot see how the EASA regulations can be stand alone legal. As the BASA expected in November only relates to PPL licenses then if that is the case the third country regulations can only be effective with PPL stuff and cannot be legal on CPL or ATP legislation till the FAA and other 3rd countries agree in the form of a BASA.
All I am sure of is that there is no way the Commission has delayed year on year for six years because they think that you and i are nice guys and should be given some Slack.
I tend to believe there are legal problems with it all
Pace
If you are a working pilot with family commitments what are you expected to do? Take six months off to do a full time course? Will your job still be there at the end I doubt it or maybe do distant learning for 1 to 2 years again tricky with Job and family commitments.
its hard to be motivated to do all that study just to do what you are doing perfectly safely weekly anyway.
As for you should know it anyway? I was speaking to an EASA ATP who told me if he sat the exams tomorrow there is no way he would pass its short term recollective stuff.
I am not sure and waiting on confirmation but if its true that the six year deferments are due to a fly in the legality of the EASA regulations which will require a BASA due to International laws and agreements to be legal then I cannot see how the EASA regulations can be stand alone legal. As the BASA expected in November only relates to PPL licenses then if that is the case the third country regulations can only be effective with PPL stuff and cannot be legal on CPL or ATP legislation till the FAA and other 3rd countries agree in the form of a BASA.
All I am sure of is that there is no way the Commission has delayed year on year for six years because they think that you and i are nice guys and should be given some Slack.
I tend to believe there are legal problems with it all
Pace
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Interestingly....it looks like the CAA have just released their intention, in their recent mailshot today, saying they intend to delay another year.
I agree, I believe the legality of it stinks.....from your human right to work, to "It's okay for airline people to fly in and out on all mixes of different licences....but not you!"...to the "You have to demonstrate compliance re Icao Part 6 Ann 2 and/or Part NCC....but it won't be as safe as other people who have exactly the same reg's in place.
Overall, it stinks. I believe they know it stinks and as I have said before, if i/we just carried on and ignored it....what they gonna do huh? I mean, what? Take me to court....for what??? Holding a licence, a damned current EASA LST (hopefully...in 3.5 hours?!), a current medical (both EASA and FAA), a current 61.58, insurance for the aircraft etc??? Lets see what a judge makes of that!!
I know of TWO operators now that have gone down the "Get.....I aint doing a damned thing....let them try to stop me!!!!!" approach and, you know what? Maybe they have it about right!!!
I agree, I believe the legality of it stinks.....from your human right to work, to "It's okay for airline people to fly in and out on all mixes of different licences....but not you!"...to the "You have to demonstrate compliance re Icao Part 6 Ann 2 and/or Part NCC....but it won't be as safe as other people who have exactly the same reg's in place.
Overall, it stinks. I believe they know it stinks and as I have said before, if i/we just carried on and ignored it....what they gonna do huh? I mean, what? Take me to court....for what??? Holding a licence, a damned current EASA LST (hopefully...in 3.5 hours?!), a current medical (both EASA and FAA), a current 61.58, insurance for the aircraft etc??? Lets see what a judge makes of that!!
I know of TWO operators now that have gone down the "Get
.....I aint doing a damned thing....let them try to stop me!!!!!" approach and, you know what? Maybe they have it about right!!!
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U and M The CAA are OK and I have found them very helpful in the past but their hands are tied They were very helpful over the validation requirements you printed above. Even the CAA make mistakes and having scared the life out of two pilots I know recognised those requirements as for public transport not private and having sent it all to licensing came back with the correct interpretation.
FAA has been a thorn in the side for decades long before EASA or even the EU and there were many many attempts to legally stop it which all failed.
I am sure when EASA was formed the problem was given to their legal department who came up with the dual licensing solution after pressure from certain powerful lobbying elements.
Of course as a new body with a blank sheet they could have put something into place which would have meant FAA in Europe as well as other flags of convenience would have died a steady death because what EASA could have done would have been more attractive. The laws of the market place.
The regulations have been set aside now since 2011. Six years since they were put in place.
A ridiculous length of time and unfair to pilots who work under FAA because its a shadow hanging over our heads and we don't know where we stand.
EASA claim the search for a BASA as the reason I now believe they have to have that BASA for the legal framework to operate legally because of international laws treaties and agreements and we are not even starting on EU working rights or age discrimination rights for some pilots who would be forced into early retirement as the costs and efforts required would not be worthwhile with their time left in the industry
So it all looks a mess and this latest mess up is inexcusable and for sure the delays every year since 2011 are not anything to do with us the pilots
Maybe it will all just die a death and go away
Pace
FAA has been a thorn in the side for decades long before EASA or even the EU and there were many many attempts to legally stop it which all failed.
I am sure when EASA was formed the problem was given to their legal department who came up with the dual licensing solution after pressure from certain powerful lobbying elements.
Of course as a new body with a blank sheet they could have put something into place which would have meant FAA in Europe as well as other flags of convenience would have died a steady death because what EASA could have done would have been more attractive. The laws of the market place.
The regulations have been set aside now since 2011. Six years since they were put in place.
A ridiculous length of time and unfair to pilots who work under FAA because its a shadow hanging over our heads and we don't know where we stand.
EASA claim the search for a BASA as the reason I now believe they have to have that BASA for the legal framework to operate legally because of international laws treaties and agreements and we are not even starting on EU working rights or age discrimination rights for some pilots who would be forced into early retirement as the costs and efforts required would not be worthwhile with their time left in the industry
So it all looks a mess and this latest mess up is inexcusable and for sure the delays every year since 2011 are not anything to do with us the pilots
Maybe it will all just die a death and go away
Pace
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I'm not a legal expert but Article 263 below may be a way to challenge.
Article 263 provides that ‘any natural or legal person may…institute proceedings against an act addressed to that person or which is of direct and individual concern to them’.
Direct concern
The Treaty does not define 'direct concern' but the case law of the Court of Justice gives guidance on the meaning of the term. The Court has indicated that the applicant must show a direct link or an unbroken chain of causation between the act and the loss or damage suffered.
Flag up all this mess to the Brexit camp too
Article 263 provides that ‘any natural or legal person may…institute proceedings against an act addressed to that person or which is of direct and individual concern to them’.
Direct concern
The Treaty does not define 'direct concern' but the case law of the Court of Justice gives guidance on the meaning of the term. The Court has indicated that the applicant must show a direct link or an unbroken chain of causation between the act and the loss or damage suffered.
Flag up all this mess to the Brexit camp too
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U & N - Pace
I will check with a colleague, he had an ICAO ATPL and was exempt 3 of the exams.
What I don't understand is you are complaining about the possibility of having no job with a family to support but having completed so much why not just get your head down and complete the exams to have an EASA license issued then problem solved.
I hold FAA and EASA ATPLs both independent of each other but I had the UK one first many years ago, then employment was offered on an FAA registered aircraft but I had to study to obtain an FAA license with type rating otherwise no job, there was no freebie, what's the difference going the other way FAA to EASA to get or keep your job ?
I will check with a colleague, he had an ICAO ATPL and was exempt 3 of the exams.
What I don't understand is you are complaining about the possibility of having no job with a family to support but having completed so much why not just get your head down and complete the exams to have an EASA license issued then problem solved.
I hold FAA and EASA ATPLs both independent of each other but I had the UK one first many years ago, then employment was offered on an FAA registered aircraft but I had to study to obtain an FAA license with type rating otherwise no job, there was no freebie, what's the difference going the other way FAA to EASA to get or keep your job ?