Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.
Reload this Page >

KingAir crash near Chigwell?

Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

KingAir crash near Chigwell?

Old 16th Oct 2015, 21:07
  #161 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,990
I was referring to MH17. I too was flying over that area to a destination in east Ukraine not long before and then all changed and Kiev was our destination because rightfully the airspace was closed down.

Panam was also terrorism but internally rather than from the ground so both acts of terrorism which could be directed at an aircraft a train or a boat.

As a percentage they would hardly show up on the statistics of aviation crashes and I still go back to the fact that pilot error is the cause of the vast majority of crashes

Obviously a bomb or missile is out of the pilots control but I doubt the Kingair was taken out by either

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 17th Oct 2015 at 02:24.
Pace is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 08:32
  #162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 120
Come on guys! This thread is about a particular incident where several who contributed knew the deceased well and are trying to find answers by rational and informed discussion.
Broadening it to a broader plarform to let proponents of the theory that " All crashes are caused by pilots" is not only off topic but since it impugnes the ability of deceased colleagues without a shred of evidence is frankly offensive.
Noiffsorbuts is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 09:34
  #163 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,990
>>This like the vast vast vast majority of accidents will likely be pilot error but compounded by mechanical failure! But yes there is a very slim chance it could be something else <<

If any offence made by the above apologies it is just a statement of fact that the vast majority of accidents are pilot error and error is used loosely I did add that there is a slim chance that it was something else and it maybe ? We do not know
Hence the above was a statement not directed at this accident
Pace is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 10:01
  #164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Temple Of Doom
Posts: 71
Hands of the throttles

Why you given yourself a pat on back with your approach in to SFO.

Surely if your take out the automatics you put your hand on the throttle to ensure you don't land up stalling on short finals?
DrJones is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 10:25
  #165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 54
Posts: 2,371
just a statement of fact that the vast majority of accidents are pilot error
Thats a well known banality. Our brain is simply not suited to fly as fast and high as we do.

If mother nature would have liked us to fly, we`d be called birds....
His dudeness is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 10:41
  #166 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,990
His Dudeness

totally agree and there is a mental gap between something going wrong and the brain working out what? I had a ASI fail in IMC in a twin.
You see the airspeed falling down towards the stall and all your instincts are to push forward and add power. Your brain then starts to work logically and you look at things like the GPS groundspeed, attitude , power settings and wind noise and you work it out.

Great in my situation at 4000 feet in IMC not so great at a couple of hundred feet above the ground IMC in fog.
And please I am not suggesting this was an ASI problem as we don't know but just one of many problems that could have occurred and one which any pilot taking off into fog? very low cloud should be aware of and not just rely on their instincts? A slight instinctive push at 4000 feet you have room to play with the same IMC in fog at 200 feet before the rational brain kicks in you get a face full of trees

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 17th Oct 2015 at 16:01.
Pace is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 12:56
  #167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
"If mother nature would have liked us to fly, we`d be called birds...."


....and our arms would get tired, innit.
Jetblu is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 16:24
  #168 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 74
Posts: 3,432
Noifsorbuts, My apologies if I caused any offence. I agree with Pace that the MAJORITY of accidents now are pilot error. I jumped in because I disagree strongly with THR RED ACC's statement that ALL accidents are pilot error. Let's wait for the report.
Herod is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2015, 18:33
  #169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 120
Appreciated H but none taken and thats actualy pretty much what i thought/think.
Noiffsorbuts is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 05:53
  #170 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 106
With regards to comments about the MLG and the appearance the gear was down, I have a recollection to share. I seem to recall King Airs of that vintage had optional "high flotation" mains available, and when the aircraft was fitted with this option the MLG doors were omitted.

That might explain the rather pristine appearance of the separated gear in the photo (post #68).

My condolences to the family and friends of the crew.

Last edited by ThreeThreeMike; 21st Oct 2015 at 06:07.
ThreeThreeMike is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 13:27
  #171 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 120
I hear local rumours of a dodgy AH.....apparently something that had been grumbling away and giving problems for a while. Only a rumour but would fit the "known" facts....
If true words fail me.
Noiffsorbuts is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 17:14
  #172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 301
We obviously weren't there but in the case of a failed or dodgy AH you still have altitude, VSI , ASI, P2 AH and I guess a Standby horizon.. That's a lot of instruments to confirm you are climbing..

Obviously, a 1g turn and the AH says it's wings level is a different story you trust the instruments.( not saying that's what happened in this case) . SP ops and aircraft not setup for MC probably just adds to the confusion by having a safety pilot.
littco is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 17:43
  #173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 120
We obviously weren't there but in the case of a failed or dodgy AH you still have altitude, VSI , ASI, P2 AH and I guess a Standby horizon.. That's a lot of instruments to confirm you are climbing..
Dont disagree with that except that the poor souls would not have had the luxury of sufficient altitude or time ( experience even?) to maybe realise they had a problem let alone trouble shoot it before flying straight into the ground following the primary instrument on take off..in the fog..the artificial horizon.
Noiffsorbuts is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 18:56
  #174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 73
Posts: 0
Another yet unknown is manual control or AFCS ( if so equipped ) A/P engaged after t/o. In certain situations and circumstances, such as systems failures or crew errors disengagement of AP and FD may result.

Have a look at AAIB report 6/2013 for G-SYGA on 12/09/12 where the go round mode was inadvertently actived causing a short breakdown in SA and a/c descending below cleared altitude.
Chronus is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 19:49
  #175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,040
Noiffsorbuts
I hear local rumours of a dodgy AH.....apparently something that had been grumbling away and giving problems for a while.
@Noiffsorbuts, from some of your posts it could be suggested you have inside knowledge.

I sincerely hope my original suspicions are unfounded for all those concerned.

Above The Clouds
My own personal opinion is they had one small insidious failure in either the ADI system or pitot static system, departing in fog with no visual reference, falsely leading them to pitch down shortly after take-off, resulting in a high speed CFIT

Last edited by Above The Clouds; 21st Oct 2015 at 20:05. Reason: Text
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2015, 00:53
  #176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Las Vegas NV.
Age: 60
Posts: 165
33M, the high floatations gears have a 1/2 gear door from the factory, there is a Raisback kit with full doors available.

Littco, factory would have been electric AH on the left, air driven on the right.
LASJayhawk is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2015, 02:28
  #177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,862
Dodgy AH's

If rumours abound, I can't help but wondering if merely the "suspicion" of a dodgy AH might have lead the PIC, when faced with a pitch up illusion, not to trust it, when it was intact giving valid data.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2015, 11:17
  #178 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 301
Find that hard to believe TBH

Scan is going to show, even if you don't trust AH that Altitude is either climbing or level, ASI will be increasing if level or decreasing/stable if climbing and VSI will show a climb etc as well.

Dodgy AH and failing ASI is a whole different matter..
littco is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2015, 12:06
  #179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 54
Posts: 2,371
Scan is going to show, even if you don't trust AH that Altitude is either climbing or level, ASI will be increasing if level or decreasing/stable if climbing and VSI will show a climb etc as well.
Yeah, with hindsight and from the armchair....IF the AH was the cause, in the soup, right after T/O, without a stby horizon, about to clean the airplane....good luck.

Many years ago I flew in the middle of the night (dead tired, although technically perfectly within FDR), on top, single hand from Thessaloniki to Stuttgart and the AH went very, very slowly banking the airplane on A/P to the left. It took me quite some time to figure it out and I was on top with some moonlight. A takeoff in fog is about the worst time to experience an instrumental failure, again, IF that was the issue on hand.
His dudeness is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2015, 07:18
  #180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 120
100 000 apparently all that the families of the deceased will get from the company death in service policy. A shamefully low and shockingly inadequate amount.
Noiffsorbuts is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.