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KingAir crash near Chigwell?

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KingAir crash near Chigwell?

Old 13th Oct 2015, 07:49
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Noiffsorbuts

Very very well said! I too came from airlines to GA and the GA culture has me tearing my hair out with frustration.

The CAA need to stop being so toothless and properly audit ALL GA companies
To stop this culture of "just get on with it, the last crew did".

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Old 13th Oct 2015, 08:07
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Let's not forget the altimeter as well.

as the ka200 is pressurised , could you assume then if the drains/alternate pitot source where left open and the cabin was set to climb at say 500fpm, then the altimeters would actually start to descend or even stay level? I guess a drain would open up the whole system where as an alternate source isolates..
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 14:59
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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.

Quote:
flapassym
The CAA need to stop being so toothless and properly audit ALL GA companies
To stop this culture of "just get on with it, the last crew did".
The problem there is, so long as the weight of the paperwork = the weight of the aircraft the CAA seem happy to let things continue. Lets face it, all companies know when an audit is approaching so they make sure their house is in the best possible order so that most likely they get away with a couple of small findings.

That doesn't mean the root cause of the problem is fixed only that a sticky plaster has contained the problem until the next audit, incident or accident.

I wonder if they send their crew to the simulator every 6 months or is all training done on the aircraft, in which case they may have never experienced such a failure, and thats another topic, training.
Above The Clouds is offline Report Post Reply
I'm well aware of how companies prepare for an audit havin witnessed the whole charade many times.

That is why I said 'properly'.

Turn up unannounced, don't give these companies a chance to make everything rosy. Catch them unprepared.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 16:50
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flapassym
I'm well aware of how companies prepare for an audit havin witnessed the whole charade many times.

That is why I said 'properly'.

Turn up unannounced, don't give these companies a chance to make everything rosy. Catch them unprepared.
No one adds faults to a tech-log retrospectively when given notice of an audit so in this respect it makes no difference when they come.

I'm not sulking like a sim instructor over the speculation, but this thread is veering towards a conclusion with (as far as I can see) almost no evidence for anything.

That's a different thing indeed from chatting about what might have happened.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 17:16
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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One of the most often heard statements from the CAA inspector.

Why is it all your defects seem to appear in your tech logs while returning to your home base or en-route to your maintenance facility.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 18:12
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Now you see them (note, I have the forward drain latched in the open position)



Now you don't.



Older interiors may have a smaller cover over the valves, but on this newer B200 you need a Phillips screwdriver to remove the panel to see if the valves are open or closed.

Worst part is I've never seen water come out of a KA static system, short of attaching a pressure washer to the static ports, it is about impossible to get water into the system, the plumbing runs straight up from the ports to the top of the airframe before going back down.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 18:16
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sulking like a sim instructor over the speculation, but this thread is veering towards a conclusion with (as far as I can see) almost no evidence for anything.

That's a different thing indeed from chatting about what might have happened.

+1 damn right
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 18:52
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Wtf? Sulking like a sim instructor?
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 19:10
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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People seem to have got awfully defensive very quickly.

Wonder why?
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 20:01
  #150 (permalink)  
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>>as far as I can see) almost no evidence for anything.<<

Apart from a discussion after the AAIB report in the distant future when the accident will be forgotten we can only speculate
In that speculation we can still learn a lot even if that speculation proves way off the mark

Pace
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 23:04
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Then how about opening a thread on tech log ?
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Old 15th Oct 2015, 20:27
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Rob bull

Rob bull the captain was a very good friend and my IMC instructor ,a very kind person who lived for flying, work his was up the hard way,when landed the job with LEA I was so please form him,rob was a very good instructor, and on my last IMC check out,he gave me a hard time about my scan and checking AH,what every happen to rob, it happen very fast, the distance for the run way to crash site is very short,base leg for 04,rob was family man who love his daughter very much, I will miss his loads, Robert mailer
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 06:51
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Accident Investigation

Having worked on a few major aircraft incidents (mainly GA out in the good ol' US of A where GAs crash almost daily due to the FAA not giving a hoot about anything but commercial aviation)..

accidents always happen as a result of a chain of events.

If the flight crew are skilled enough to spot any of the links forming (sometimes they form very quickly) the chain and can stop the formation, then they can prevent the accident. However, if the final link has formed and the aircraft is now in distress (i.e. the damage is done), then only a very skilled flight crew would be able to get the aircraft to safety by using their knowledge, skills and training.

So the AAIB will have to ask themselves,

1) What were the links to this chain that led to the accident?
2) How quickly did those links develop and form the chain?
3) Could the pilots have spotted the forming links early on?
4) Why couldn't the pilots handle the emergency situation?

At the end of the day, you can blame microbursts, a faulty AH, a faulty fuel pump, icing in the B777 fuel-oil heat exchange, etc etc, but it will always be pilot error because they could have and definitely should have avoided this accident if they had

a) spotted the chain of events developing
b) broke that chain of events or failing that
c) used their training, knowledge, skills and something that is rare these days -> common sense <- to have recovered from the emergency


That's my two pence.

And before it kicks off, let me give you an example.

I was in the sim the other day practicing an approach into SFO. It was pretty windy with choppy gusts. There we were flying a visual into SFO and the airspeed was quite unstable and quite high by 2500' callout. I disengaged the AP/FD/AT and left the thrust levers at idle trying to bleed off the excess speed. Down to 500', the aircraft nose is coming up, a sinking sensation kicks in and low and behold, I notice the thrust levers are still at idle. Call for TOGA and off we go (you know the drill; full power, nose up, gear up, flaps 3, etc etc). The sim instructor praised me on avoiding another Asiana at SFO but also praised me on breaking the chain that could have led to an accident!
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 07:53
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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At the end of the day, you can blame microbursts, a faulty AH, a faulty fuel pump, icing in the B777 fuel-oil heat exchange, etc etc, but it will always be pilot error because they could have and definitely should have avoided this accident if they had
Not so!

There are many things that can bring an aircraft down that are completely outside the control of the pilots....

Birdstrike, space debris, missile, explosion, smoke/fire, catastrophic airframe failure.....the list is endless. Most clearly not applicable to this case....but such a sweeping statement is patently wrong.

Others might be less polite
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 08:42
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Noiffsorbuts View Post
Not so!

There are many things that can bring an aircraft down that are completely outside the control of the pilots....

Birdstrike, space debris, missile, explosion, smoke/fire, catastrophic airframe failure.....the list is endless. Most clearly not applicable to this case....but such a sweeping statement is patently wrong.

Others might be less polite
I apologise if I have hit a nerve but you know it is the truth.

Birdstrike - not usually avoidable but definitely able to recover from it (e.g. US1549)

Space debris - I will not comment.

Missile - should not be flying over an active/prominent warzone.

Explosion/Smoke/Fire - avoidable if the aircraft is maintained accordingly but also recoverable if the flight crew are able to land and evacuate. Refer to BA777 at LAS as well about the importance of quick decision making.

Catastrophic Airframe Failure - give me an example of this as the cause of any commercial aviation accident where pilot/human error was not an attribute?
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 17:53
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Catastrophic airframe failure

The De Havilland Comet airliners for starters. Sioux City DC10 another.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 19:40
  #157 (permalink)  
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There maybe very rare occasions of a structural design fault making the aircraft unflyable but sadly in the vast vast amount of cases it comes down to pilot error.

Not always in a serviceable aircraft but in mishandling a situation where one or more failures have occurred.

Pilots may loose an engine then crash the aircraft because the engine out situation was not handled correctly.

That is why we have emergency checklists to make sure we follow the correct steps in dealing with an aircraft that has gone wrong.

something happened pretty quickly with very little altitude at a guess to cause a good pilot to crash? He didn't have enough air under the plane and time to sort it. There is always that delay period from something going wrong to the pilot working out whats wrong and reacting correctly to it.

I do think the radar traces and altitude readouts will be very revealing in showing the altitude the aircraft should have been in a normal climb and its descent point to impact as well as the speeds from the traces

Pace
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 20:01
  #158 (permalink)  

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but it will always be pilot error because they could have and definitely should have avoided this accident
What a complete load of rubbish. Two accidents in the news today, because of developments. PanAm 103 and MH17. The only way the pilots could have prevented those, 100% fatal, accidents would have been not to take off in the first place.

Congratulations on your undoubted skill in the simulator.
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 20:23
  #159 (permalink)  
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Herod

What he said is not rubbish. The answer to your points is that aircraft should not be allowed to fly over war torn countries where you are likely to be shot at so in cases like MH17 the regulators are at fault

I repeat the vast majority of accidents are pilot error in handling a serviceable aircraft or one with problems where those problems in themselves should not take an aircraft down if handled correctly
This like the vast vast vast majority of accidents will likely be pilot error but compounded by mechanical failure! But yes there is a very slim chance it could be something else

Pace
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Old 16th Oct 2015, 20:31
  #160 (permalink)  

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Pace. PanAm 103 was over SCOTLAND. Hardly a war-torn country.
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