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Various Globals now...

Old 8th Mar 2015, 23:25
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Various Globals now...

With there being XRS, 5000, 6000 and 7000 what is the training situation for initial?

All still considered the same type, just with differences training?

Is one variation preferable to do the initial type on?
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 00:21
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Various Globals now...

Classic, XRS and 5000 were built with Honeywell SPZ8400 avionics and they are one common type with very minor differences training included in the initial or during a recurrent class.

The new 5000 and now the 6000 are manufactured with a Rockwell Collins Vision avionics package, so the XRS is no longer manufactured as its increased range capabilities are rolled into the new 6000.

The new 5000 and 6000 are still a BBD700 type rating but offered with much more extensive differences training due to the new flight deck.

The 7000 and 8000 will be a totally new type rating due to the fly-by-wire side sticks etc.

Average cost annual 6000 recurrent class (two classes) at Flight Safety is approximately $55,000, with the initial differences course between Honeywell and Rockwell Collins priced at approximately $25,000. There is also now an approved differences class for Rockwell Collins to Honeywell flight decks.

Last edited by GIVSP; 3rd May 2016 at 15:08. Reason: edits
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 03:57
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I heard a rumour the "classic" (XRS/Honeywell 5000) to Vision differences course has increased in duration from 4 days to 2 weeks? Any truth in said rumour?
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 05:33
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Eight weeks ago, it was still four days with Bombardier in Dallas. Now you also do the entire initial on the Global Vision, but I do not know how the price compares to Global Express plus Differences
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 07:33
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Does that mean that if you are doing an initial for a 5000 with Honeywell avionics you do a Vision initial and then differences to the older avionics, or can you still do an initial on Honeywell?
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 10:14
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Thanks all....55,000 for a recurrent!? Surely you meant initial (I bloody hope!)
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 10:51
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If you do an initial on the vision, can you do a differences to the classic?
Recurrent for a classic is about 25k. By the way, does anyone understand the reasoning behind loading the recurrent training for individuals as much as FS and CAE do? I had a quote for 37k recently - they dropped to 25 with a minimal haggle but why ask for so much cash in the first place?

If you fly both variants is there any point in doing a vision recurrent? Just seems like a bundle of extra money for nothing.
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 12:04
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I not aware of any Vision to Classic differences training, i.e. – in my opinion – that you have to do a full Classic initial instead (see Falcon 2000EX Classic to 2000). Also, some authorities do not accept recurrents on simulators different from the actual airplane if you fly in a commercial operation; I had that issue once with the Luxembourg CAA, which insisted that the recurrent had to be done on an HS125 simulator with Pro Line 21, even though Pro Line II and Honeywell would have been equally legal.

@FerrypilotDK:
55.000 USD for a Global Vision recurrent sounds rather low for FSI, maybe they have finally realized that they are driving away customers with their prohibitive prices.
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Old 9th Mar 2015, 12:37
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An initial with CAE is $94000 that includes the vision differences
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Old 10th Mar 2015, 10:16
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I understand that to retain both Honeywell and Vision, in EASA land, you have to alternate recurrents between the 2.
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Old 10th Mar 2015, 15:32
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where do you understand that from? I can't find it anywhere. Aviation is too bloody complicated..

(found it now but only as a recommendation from Bombardier. If anybody knows where its mandated can you let me know)

Last edited by GlenQuagmire; 10th Mar 2015 at 15:43. Reason: found more info
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Old 10th Mar 2015, 23:08
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You don't need to alternate. FCL710(b) If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences raining, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single-engine piston and TMG class ratings.

Not that it makes much difference. I intended to renew on whichever one I hadn't flown much but the truth is I will renew on whichever one is cheapest..
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Old 14th Mar 2015, 21:00
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Cost of training

That price was for a full service annual recurrent training package - so included 2 recurrent training events plus you can visit as many times as the sim and instructors are available - some contract pilots just need to maintain landing currency during the year.
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Old 15th Mar 2015, 10:44
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Initial for 5000/6000 with Bombardier in Montreal is approx. $ 75000 and with FSI in Columbus $ 95000!
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Old 15th Mar 2015, 16:58
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I looked at doing a 'backwards' differences course from Global Vision to Global Classic (Honeywell) - In EASA land this is absolutely not possible (Verboten) and I would have to have done a full Global Classic Initial.

In FAA Land, you can do a 'backwards' differences course between Global Vision and Global Classic, but you can then only fly an FAA registered aircraft and cannot then subsequently transfer it across to an EASA Land aircraft.

In terms of holding both Type Ratings i.e.; Classic and Initial - I have never seen anything written down but I recently did some work business with the Bermudan Authorities for a Challenger pilot who held both 604 and 605 Type Ratings, and they would not validate him on the 604 if he had not done a full 604 Recurrent in the previous 2 years - they also pointed out to me that this would be the same for the 605 - ergo, if you want to satisfy the Bermudan authorities and probably some of the others - it seems sensible (and dare I say it at the risk of being verbally abused and mangled) and professional to do one every other year

However, I suspect some people's Ops Manuals will say you have to do one each year and therefore you will have to do 2 Recurrent's each year for both Classic and Vision - and if you move onto the 7000/8000 then you could be onto 3 a year!

At that stage you've probably been flying far too long and its time to give up!
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Old 15th Mar 2015, 19:47
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Well, I could only imagine that this so, because a differences course for the classic for Vision-only Pilots does not exist atm. If Bombardier or CAE would offer an approved classic differences course, this is what you should be doing and not an initial type rating. I am sure that they would offer this, if enough demand for this should arise in the future - as long as classic versions of the AC are flown, this will possibly be the case.

Maybe all this is a good reason NOT to progress to the Vision, as sooner or later there might be more demand on the classic again. Rather wait and move on to the 7000, because it is a different type.

One other thing I have noticed, is that many staffers don't even have a clue about all this and many understand the Vision being a completly seperate type rating and treat it as such, which it certainly is not. After not even 3 years, it has become quite rare to get a job offered on the Vision without having any actual practical experience with it.... even with thousands of hours on the classic.
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Old 15th Mar 2015, 23:10
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So the 7/8000 will be a different rating to the current vision models?

CP
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Old 15th Mar 2015, 23:22
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Yes absolutely - apart from the larger dimensions, limitations, the 7000/8000 will have too many "differences" e.g. different powerplant, fly by wire etc.
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 13:02
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Resurrecting an old thread - I'm interested in the legalities and regulations surrounding "differences courses", in particular the Global Classic/XRS to Vision. Just interested in the FAA Part 91 case - do both the captain and copilot need to have done the differences course? I imagine there are insurance ramifications and I'm also aware that is would certainly not be ideal if both crew had not completed the training, but interested in the rules surrounding differences courses. I understand that your licence will still only have BD700 on it - would appreciate any thoughts!
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Old 30th Apr 2016, 16:14
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Bringing this up again.

Is anyone (yet) offering a differences course from the Vision to 5000 classic? (EASA)

A full initial seems crazy.
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