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Challenger crash at KASE

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Challenger crash at KASE

Old 9th Jan 2014, 20:10
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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ATERPSTER makes a fine point. APCH N/A cat D.

But I really don't know what the Challenger is classed at. I realize it doesn't have slats/leds.

BUT I am sure that the actual AFM will declare this plane to be class "?".

Anyone have the book?

I remember a crash at Grand Juction in a Challenger. Famous NBC sports guy and family. Cause was something like ice on the wings during takeoff.

DOES that ring a bell?
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Old 9th Jan 2014, 20:46
  #142 (permalink)  
VFD
 
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DOES that ring a bell?
You are close.
I believe you are referring to NBC exec Dick Ebersol and family.
However, it was at Montrose, CO KMJT
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Old 9th Jan 2014, 21:45
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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All this discussion is still academic concerning this accident. If (and it's a pretty likely if) the captain was found to have knowingly and deliberately exceeded the aircraft's published limitations (and by a significant margin) to land there he is guilty of reckless operation. Since he killed someone as a result and endangered the lives of others he is criminally liable. Whether he will be charged is another issue but I'm betting he will. The international aspect will add a wrinkle.

The authorities will not jump quickly on this issue because of the time it takes to complete an investigation and because of the serious implications involved in charging a pilot with a crime, especially a foreign pilot. There are still many factors that have to be explored such as the possibility of an undeclared emergency and an inability to recall details which is about the only thing I can think of that could save this guy.
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Old 9th Jan 2014, 23:53
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Self-Reported ceiling of 1043ft, 1400-odd ft below the MDA?

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Old 10th Jan 2014, 00:10
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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I can't hear the audio very clearly, but I don't hear anyone state "runway in sight, continue", or whatever the equivalent statement is in your ops, yet the descent is not arrested at MDA… evidence for a self built pseudo GS being flown?
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 00:10
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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glendalegoon:

I remember a crash at Grand Juction in a Challenger. Famous NBC sports guy and family. Cause was something like ice on the wings during takeoff.
Montrose, Colorado. They probably would have been okay had they taxied to the long runway. Accidents like that one are pathetic and inexcusable.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 00:53
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Self-Reported ceiling of 1043ft, 1400-odd ft below the MDA?
Doesn't look like a circling approach...
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 00:54
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone willing to help me understand exactly what "Circle to Land" means these days?

http://www.ce560xl.com/files/Chartin...le_to_Land.pdf
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 01:24
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
Never flown the Challenger itself, but have flown three of its derivatives (CRJ-200/700/900). For all three of them, partial or no-flap landings were practiced in the simulator regularly. Just as well, because the -100/200, for example, had a habit of experiencing flap failures, while on the -900 I had one case of a slat failure. Furthermore, for all of those aircraft single-engine landings are made with Flaps 20, which is also the case for landings with a pitch trim failure.
Over the past 5 years we've had 3 separate instances of commuter CRJ-200s having to make no-flap landings at my local upstate New York airport. All had non-eventful outcomes, though emergencies were declared in each case, with fire and rescue equipment standing by.

All three flights originated in Detroit, and all the flap failures occurred in winter. Apparently the 200 model had issues with flap position microswitches freezing up due to water/slush ingress into the flap bays - usually on the preceding takeoff, leading to a flap system failure when the crew tried to deploy them during the approach.

The carrier has since retired all of their 200s in favor of CRJ-700s which don't seem to have that particular problem.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 01:53
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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I realize most training is accomplished in the sim now, but for years that was not the case. Can anyone remember Canadair (bombardier) training pilots allowing less than full flap landings?
As far as I know, all factory Challenger training was primarily in the sim right from the beginning. I was one of the first U.S. pilots typed in the CL 600, since my company put the first one into U.S. service. We trained in the sim at YUL.

That said, I really can't remember whether there was more than one landing flap setting in the book. It seems like we used less than full flaps in gusty crosswind landings, but we were very standardized, so if we did them as a matter of course it would have been in the book.

Last edited by Murexway; 10th Jan 2014 at 02:04.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 02:00
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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But the Challenger is Category D, so there are no circling minimums.

So I assume all those nice shiny Cat D speed machines shown parked on Goooogle Earth landed there with VMC below the MSA...
Years ago Gulfstream brought out an ASC (Aircraft Service Change) for the GIV that allowed the crew to change the aircraft category from D to C. It consisted of a credit card-sized piece of cardboard slotted into the co-pilots instrument panel. One side listed the reduced weight limitations to achieve Cat C performance, the other side; Cat D limits. You simply rotated the card in the slot to change category. The catch was that it had to be declared and recorded prior to take off. Couldn't be done in-flight. It allowed the GIV to get into airports (including KASE) that did not have Cat D minima by operating to Cat C limits with the associated payload/fuel and speed restrictions.

I'm guessing they did the same for the G450/GV/G550. It would explain some of the heavier metal on the ramp as KASE.

For the Challenger drivers; Does the 601/604 have a similar option?
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 02:11
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone willing to help me understand exactly what "Circle to Land" means these days?

http://www.ce560xl.com/files/Chartin...le_to_Land.pdf
I would like to be enlightened too. :-)

I had always thought that a straight in approach was permissible if the runway was in sight and a normal landing was assured, even if no straight in minimums were published.

aterpster says no, and I would think he would know.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 02:56
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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I guess this means a Category D is prohibited from using the LOC/DME-E, period. Correct?

Or was it allowable for a Category D to fly the approach to DOYPE (7.1 DME at 11,700) and proceed if they saw the runway?

Aircraft Approach Categories:

An aircraft's approach category is based on 1.30 VSO or VREF, as defined by the certification rules applicable at the time that the type certificate was issued, computed at the aircraft's maximum certificated landing weight. Transport airplanes type-certificated after December 2002 define final approach speed using the term VREF, which was newly added to the definitions contained in 14 CFR part 1. Prior to December 2002, final approach speed for transport airplanes was defined as 1.30 VSO.

Whether final approach speed is defined as 1.30 VSO or VREF, the aircraft's approach category is always based on maximum certified landing weight. It is never permissible to use a lower approach category based on the aircraft's actual landing weight. Non-standard landing configuration or abnormal procedure speed additives may result in the need to use minima associated with a higher approach category. If these lines of minima are not published, then circling approaches are prohibited.

http://www.ce560xl.com/files/Chartin...le_to_Land.pdf

Aterpster says "That approach doesn't have straight-in minimums for any approach category nor does it have circling minimums for approach category D. So an approach Category D airplane cannot legally even begin that approach" and I believe him. Nor does any other instrument approach for KASE have minimums for Category D, so doesn't that mean that Category D aircraft are prohibited from all but visual approaches to this airport?

Last edited by thcrozier; 10th Jan 2014 at 03:38.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 03:27
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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And, some aircraft (e.g. the B-757), are in one category for straight in approaches, and a higher one for circling.

Looks to me like the Challenger 601 is Cat C for straight in with an approach speed of 125 knots, is this right? Is it indeed Cat D for circling?
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 03:43
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Crozier,

Not too sure of your question from the link posted.

The training issue is off the track. A TRTO will have authorization to perform maneuvers required for training by the regulator, in the absence of a training device. That authorization is completely unrelated from what an operational crew is authorized to do, as per the AFM. The relevant regulator will impose conditions on the TRTO as to how perform, in this case, partial flap landings for training and evaluation.


It's Cat C for straight-in approaches, Cat D for circling. This oddity has to do with the final approach speed for flaps 45 on straight-in and circling speeds with flaps 30 for circling. Yes, a bit unusual that it falls out this way.

The fact that that most KASE landings are flown "straight in" visually is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that the final approach descent gradient exceeds 400 ft/nm means it is a "circling" approach, not how the plane is aligned with the runway. Some TERPS/PANS-OPS study is in order, perhaps.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 03:51
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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From what I see, every approach to KASE except the ROARING FORK VISUAL is Circling and none allow Category D. If that's the case, wouldn't the airport be off-limits to any Category D in IMC?
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 03:52
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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That's correct.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 03:57
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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There is a special approach, the LOC DME 15 that's not a circling approach. It however doesn't have cat D mins either.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 03:57
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Galaxy,

I'm just interested to know if any Category D aircraft can reasonably expect to execute a legal approach to KASE under IMC. It seems that the answer is no.

Thank you and with all due respect, Sir.
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Old 10th Jan 2014, 04:25
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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If its a special approach, it's not authorized. A lot of operators have "special", as opposed to "standard" IAP procedures authorized. I looked thru the database today and didn't see a standard IAP with either "straight in" mins or Cat D mins.

So, no, using SIAPs, a Cat D plane cannot fly the approaches, Visual arrivals only.
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