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Challenger crash at KASE

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Challenger crash at KASE

Old 5th Jan 2014, 21:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by I.R.PIRATE View Post
Not nice winds for decent stopping on rwy 15...

Interesting track - seems like a circle to land, followed by a missed, followed by a short approach for the 2nd shot???
Maybe, or one approach broken off early, one missed, and then one close in pattern to touchdown??

Interesting looking at the vertical data in the link, enters the area enroute at 20 k, descends to 17,800, then back up to 21K, then down to 12,500, then back up to 15,900, then down to 9,200 ft, end of data (KASE field elevation 7800 ft)
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 21:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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From another forum:

My buddy said the plane landed long with a gusty tailwind, bounced, lost control, and then flipped over.
Apparently an eyewitness.

Challenger Crash Aspen - Airline Pilot Central Forums
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 21:59
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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With 10-30 its on the tail, that 'close in pattern' would require nearly a miracle...
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 22:23
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From another forum:

Quote:
My buddy said the plane landed long with a gusty tailwind, bounced, lost control, and then flipped over.
Apparently an eyewitness.

Challenger Crash Aspen - Airline Pilot Central Forums
As posted in the BizJet forum.
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 22:23
  #25 (permalink)  

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I've flown the circling to 33 in a 604 many years ago, but in almost perfect weather. Gusty winds, icing, vis etc makes it just that much more difficult...
I have as well, not in a 604, but in other jet aircraft and as you posted, clear day and dry ruway.

Also, as you probably know, you have to plant the aircraft on the runway 33 in the touchdown zone due to the down slope, or you'll float forever.

As far as I can remember, this only the second fatal jet accident at Aspen, the other one of course was the G-III. I was in Aspen when it crashed. I saw one other fatal accident at Aspen, it was a glider. We watched it fly into a river ridge. It was one of those 'Take a glider ride in beautiful Aspen for $50.00.' things. A couple on their honeymoon decided to take a ride, it was the wife's turn when it crashed, both her and the pilot were killed.

You have to be on top of your game at Aspen, God knows I've been there enough times, an average of once a week for 16 years combined winter and summer, to well understand that.
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 22:46
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WC, I respect your abilities, but I really think the "The key to success" at Aspen is knowing when to divert. I'm not second guessing or being critical of any pilot. But, when I read the NTSB report of the Gulfstream crash that's what kept running through my mind.
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 23:01
  #27 (permalink)  

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Okay, I have some additonal information.

The aircraft was a 601-3AR. They were making their second attempt at landing on 15. It crashed trying to land on 15, not 33. On the first approach they went around when they got a 30 plus knot tailwind component on short final.

Just prior to the accident the tower reported the wind to the crew as; "[email protected], 1 minute average 330 @14 gusting 25".

From reports from another website, the crew was new to the aircraft, it was sold in October in Mexico City.


Tower ATC tape here;

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ka...2014-1900Z.mp3

In the background at about 21:55 on the tape you can hear someone in the tower yelling "Go around, go around, go around!". Sobering.

From the pictures I have seen of the accident site, down valley was clear and the sun is/was shinning. For you here that are experienced Aspen pilots, know that is often the case, even with the local weather reporting overcast.

I will get a report from a crew that was in Aspen and saw the entire accident in about an hour or so. I'll relay it here.
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 23:08
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Deferring to con-pilot's superior experience, going around at KASE, Landing 15, would be a sobering experience, indeed! The video posted on APF, shows the ski areas and town in cloud, the ridge opposite the terminal side is obscured looking toward the end of 15. A go around would be right into cumulo-granite.
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 23:12
  #29 (permalink)  

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Close up picture of accident.

[IMG]
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 23:33
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CBS News live raw feed

http://www.ustream.tv/cbsnews

(live at 23:35 UTC)
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Old 5th Jan 2014, 23:51
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Lets jet

Pretty sure you know exactly what I meant.

There are things you do there that are uncommon elsewhere. On the LOC DME 15 it's common inside the FAF to be descending at 2500 FPM to get to MDA prior to MAP or turning right as soon as the wheels break ground. That is where repetition pays off.

Knowing when to divurt isn't a skill particular to ASE.
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 00:08
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WC,

I agree with you....
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 00:20
  #33 (permalink)  

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turning right as soon as the wheels break ground.
Yeah, those head to head arrivals and takoffs were a bit unnerving at first, but one gets use to it. I only had to go around once* that I can remember because the departing aircraft started its takeoff too late.

The tower was not pleased, neither was I really. They kept telling the crew to either start their takeoff immeditely or clear the runway and of course they did neither untill I had to go around. After I started the miss, they finally took off.

The tower gave them their landline number and told them to call back after they landed, wherever they were going. I never found out if they did or not.

That's just the way it is in Aspen, ya got to roll with the punches.


* The more that I think about it now, it happend about three or four times in all those years, but I think the above was the only time it was a corporate jet. The other times they were light aircraft.

But have to admit, there were times I could see what color tie the departing pilot was wearing.
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 00:35
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...white of the eyes....
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 00:45
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Yeah, I never thought I could get used to it, but you do.
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 01:00
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I really think the "The key to success" at Aspen is knowing when to divert.
This really is the key. Your company must have solid and unbreakable SOPs when it comes to such airports. As a pilot you must be able to make that decision without being second guessed.

The passengers will always give you a hard time...(politely ignore them)
"other airplanes are landing and taking off"

"my other pilots land in weather like this all the time"

"aren't you good enough?"
If you work for a company that talks to you like that or doesn't back you up when you make a safety call you really should consider looking for another job before you find yourself in a similar situation.
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 01:21
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Does anyone know who the operator was? Corporate? Charter?

Says the crew was three Mexican men. That's all.
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 02:07
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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N115WF Aircraft Registration ? FlightAware
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 02:13
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From Aviation-Safety.net

A Canadair Challenger 601 corporate jet, reported by Flightaware to be N115WF, sustained substantial damage in a landing accident at Aspen-Pitkin County Airport, CO (ASE). The airplane came to rest upside down on runway 15. The right hand wing had broken off and a fire erupted. Three people were on board the airplane, the Pitkin County Sheriff's Office said. One person died in the crash, one person has major to severe injuries and one person has minor to moderate injuries.
Flightaware data show that Challenger N115WF arrived at Tucson International Airport, AZ (TUS) about 08:47 MST following a flight from Toluca (TLC), Mexico. The airplane then departed at 10:04 MST, bound for Aspen, CO.
Audio from the Aspen Tower frequency shows N115WF being cleared to land about 12:10 but the flight executed a missed approach: "Missed approach November one one five Wiskey Fox .. Thirty three knots of tailwind." Other flights had also reported low level windshear and a gain of 5-20 knots on approach.
Following the missed approach procedure, N115WF was again cleared to land about 12:20: "November one one five Wiskey Foxtrot wind three three zero at one six, runway one five cleared to land. One minute average three two zero, one four, gust two five." This clearance was confirmed by N115WF: "Roger one one five Wiskey Fox."
The FAA confirmed to ABC News that the airplane was a "Bombardier Challenger 600, coming from Tucson to Aspen".
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Old 6th Jan 2014, 02:16
  #40 (permalink)  

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Says the crew was three Mexican men. That's all.
It is being reported on an other pilot's website (pay site) that they were new to the aircraft and this was their first trip into Aspen. The aircraft was sold to a company in Mexico City in October.

That is pretty reliable information. However, as they were going to ASE to pick up the passeners, how did the passengers get there in the first place, if not in that aircraft?

Oh well, we'll find out soon enough.
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