Study on Grey Charter in Europe

[mutt]

We don't operate under the equivalent of FAR125, but if we did, then the owner is permitted to charge reasonable costs to anyone who travels on the aircraft. Maybe that isn't permitted under JAA rules, but it is legal for some non European operators.

If he has that much money, he can afford an AOC then.

Sure he can afford an AOC, but why would he want one?

Mutt

[flynowpaylater]

Now lets imagine you, Mr.FNPL, had say a VW bus cause you have a big family and
a lot of friends. Lets assume you would take some of your friends along for a
ride. Now imagine that you could be questioned by police at every drive you take
what the relations between you and your "passengers" are... would you like this
? Would you think its approbiate ? Would you think that just because - I think -
very few VW bus owners illegally charter out their VWs that every VW bus owner
needs to be hosed with reulations ?

HA ha Dudeness - I DO own a VW bus!!!
I get your point. But if I were to hang outside a nightclub, or station, or airport terminal picking up passengers in my VW bus and charging them for the journey then the local taxi drivers would probably have something to say would you think? As would the authorities.

The people who post on Pprune in reality are probably not those who do IPT. The risky ones are those who pursued someone to buy a small jet or turbo prop, telling them that they can get "additional" income from short term "leases". This projected income then forms part of the business plan to justify buying the aircraft in the first place. This then often escalates because the running costs of the aircraft have been under estimated, leaving a black hole in the finances that needs filling. I'm sorry to say that this is more wide spread than we all care to think. As I said before, if the corporate world can't regulate itself, then the authorities will step in.

Smoke out the minority and protect your way of life.

FNPL

[His dudeness]

But if I were to hang outside a nightclub, or station, or airport terminal picking up passengers in my VW bus and charging them for the journey then the local taxi drivers would probably have something to say would you think?

As would the authorities.

Yeah, and Iīm not against THAT. I'm not against making the law work its way (after all, its already illegal to charter out without an AOC)
The way to get proof and justice done is where I say what EBAA are having in their questionaire is partly outragious and totally inacceptable.

All I say is, when "Airpolice" (whoever that may be, police, customs, SAFA checkers, ATC etc.etc.) would have PERMISSION to check/question WITHOUT reasonable suspicion, then I object.

I'm sorry to say that this is more wide spread than we all care to think.

Is there ANY evidence to that ? Just because someone says its so, doesn`t mean anything. As I said before, I canīt say Iīve witnessed many flights that I thought are suspicious. (not that I ever particuliarly cared... I had way more issues with the shoddy AOC holders)

As for filling the black hole... if you look at the cost of the airplane privately operated and then how much one would have to charge to fill in the gap Iīd say you could possibly get a smaller loss, but not make money from it. (at least not with a relatively new airplane) And how much would the difference between an illegal and a legal be for the "client" ? Looking at the margins AOC operators usually make that canīt be too much of a difference IMO...

I suspect we wonīt agree on this and thus I rest my case now.

Good car you have btw.

[Kerosene]

If I recall right, commercial use is defined as 'for reward or hire'. Nothing stops a private aircraft owner however from cost sharing.

So, as long as there is no profit involved, no AOC should be required, unlike some here have stated.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[flynowpaylater]

Good car you have btw.

More of a hobby than a car. The old girl is a T2 air cooled.

Sorry to go off piste...

You're right though about how to police it. At the end of the day our friends at EASA seem unable to deal with these simple things. They just want everyone to be like an airline so it's easier to stay below the radar. A simple system of some accountabilty and operating procedures for corporate operators of complex types would be easy and cheap to implement. This way, the bottom end would have to raise their game and the top end would benefit from already doing it properly.

My comment on the black hole is more reference to the managing of the financials and maintenance. I've met a lot of people who under estimate what these machines cost to keep in the air in good condition AOC or not.

[His dudeness]

The old girl is a T2 air cooled.

Had a VW Type 3 station wagon ('Variant') myself, a 73 model with the 1.6 litre /54 horses engine. IIRC thats the one the T2 has as well...? Although they built em with the 1.5 ltr / 45 hp as well, didnīt they ?

A simple system of some accountabilty and operating procedures for corporate operators of complex types would be easy and cheap to implement.

EASA-Ops will contain some of that methinks. However, if one wants to betray the system, he does it. No way we can implement something workable that solves that issue - that is life I suppose....

[mutt]

Saudi Arabia is in the process of implementing their own aviation regulations rather than accepting the FAA regulations. In the new regulations, the only aircraft that will be allowed to operated under Part 91 are small aircraft, all others will be required to be operated under 121/125 or 135. So all jet operators must have an AOC of some type.

This however won't stop 125 operators from operating at cost and charging accordingly.