Best of the old iron
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Trimup...YES!...Like that one...
I don't know that specific A/C, but the interior looks like several I have flown...
The engine type is wrong...PT-41's are turboprops....
If you consider a 727 you would want at least a PW JT-8D-9, preferably a -15...There are some about with VALSAN conversions which cost more, but are most likely Stage 4 compliant...and the fuel savings, and performance would be, based on your intended missions, very advantageous...
35,000 airframe hours is nothing for this A/C....
If 700,000 is the price, I'd bet the owner (principal) is just trying to write it off and wants "something" for it...
A private VIP 727 is generally well maintained, and I'll bet you the flight crew may even be available for you...
In any case, if you can't tell, I am very fond of the old 727, as any pilot who has flown one is....
Good luck in your search, but please give the old girl a consideration...DI3G
I don't know that specific A/C, but the interior looks like several I have flown...
The engine type is wrong...PT-41's are turboprops....
If you consider a 727 you would want at least a PW JT-8D-9, preferably a -15...There are some about with VALSAN conversions which cost more, but are most likely Stage 4 compliant...and the fuel savings, and performance would be, based on your intended missions, very advantageous...
35,000 airframe hours is nothing for this A/C....
If 700,000 is the price, I'd bet the owner (principal) is just trying to write it off and wants "something" for it...
A private VIP 727 is generally well maintained, and I'll bet you the flight crew may even be available for you...
In any case, if you can't tell, I am very fond of the old 727, as any pilot who has flown one is....
Good luck in your search, but please give the old girl a consideration...DI3G
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MSP
"I am so far outside the normal with my proposed solution that very few industry insiders are going to be able to look past their "this is what everyone always does" blinders. You should hear the ones I have talked to when I say I don't want MSP'ed engines. It is like they came out of one of those telecomm adds on TV.
We all bundle.
but WE ALL BUNDLE!!!!"
We all bundle.
but WE ALL BUNDLE!!!!"
Last edited by g450cpt; 14th Apr 2013 at 15:48.
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Just a completely different take on this conundrum,
One gets the impression that the continuity of staff and expertise is of paramount importance to the proposed transfer of this company.
In which case, one asks,-"Why the hell are you considering flying all your key personnell in the same aircraft at the same time????
However rare accidents may be, it's no consolation if things do go T.U.
The other issue, is if the "old" team do not get on with new management....unless the rewards include an enormous pair of "golden Handcuffs", I can't see anyone signing a contract with an untested employer for 7 years.
I' m totally unqualified to talk about your choices of transport, but where a "fixed-price-plan" is in place, you can be sure the Bean-Counters have done the sums and added a healthy margin.....the imponderable is, -do your costs come in above, or below the average.
As someone once said, "Are you feelin' lucky, punk?"
Insurance in a different dress,- they hope to make more on the winners than they lose on the losers. You only have one horse in the race.
One gets the impression that the continuity of staff and expertise is of paramount importance to the proposed transfer of this company.
In which case, one asks,-"Why the hell are you considering flying all your key personnell in the same aircraft at the same time????
However rare accidents may be, it's no consolation if things do go T.U.
The other issue, is if the "old" team do not get on with new management....unless the rewards include an enormous pair of "golden Handcuffs", I can't see anyone signing a contract with an untested employer for 7 years.
I' m totally unqualified to talk about your choices of transport, but where a "fixed-price-plan" is in place, you can be sure the Bean-Counters have done the sums and added a healthy margin.....the imponderable is, -do your costs come in above, or below the average.
As someone once said, "Are you feelin' lucky, punk?"
Insurance in a different dress,- they hope to make more on the winners than they lose on the losers. You only have one horse in the race.
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if I hire a half time A&P to support my one flying aircraft he could use
his excess time to disassemble the donor. I intend to have the prepurchase
inspections done by one of the specialists in whatever type I chose. I was
thinking of asking for their opinion on the weakest systems to know where to
start disassembly
his excess time to disassemble the donor. I intend to have the prepurchase
inspections done by one of the specialists in whatever type I chose. I was
thinking of asking for their opinion on the weakest systems to know where to
start disassembly
Your DOC's are paid by the other party, your fixed cost are easily planned and all unforeseen are paid for by the insurance(s).
Based on your updated travel distances at least, a Hawker would suit the bill if you like the cabin. Go have a look around and see what you think, bring some of the more senior fellow travellers with you, even charter one for a test trip.
There is no need to buy a second airframe, or even hire a full time A&P. Get a local firm to quote you fixed fees for your maintenance intervals, and have them supply a mechanic for you to use ad hoc. It is a lot easier to challenge a supplier on failure to deliver than your own employee.
Don't make the mistake of doing it all yourself or the cheapest out there, you are not qualified or experienced to make those decisions or choices. Your primary concern should be to fix as much of your future cost and expenses as possible and cover all unforeseen scenarios. There will be loads of them and you cannot see them coming. Hiring an A&P when you are as inexperienced as you are just opens the door to being taken for a ride.
You are a businessman, do what you know, plan. Get everything possible covered for a fixed price, you may spend a bit more now, but over the life of your travels you will end up miles ahead.
Get going for a few years and you can always change your modus of operandi, once you gain the know how and experience, until then avoid trying to be clever, it will cost you.
Just for anecdotal comparison, my principal is on his umpteenth airplane, having owned their own for a long time, we have plenty of experience in operating private aircraft, we still cover all our fixed cost via programs and use outside vendors to supply maintenance contracts. We have had our misfortune and have had to replace, avionics and other high value items including powerplant/APU before they were due, but it didn't matter as the programs paid for the cost. The benefit of having fixed costs far outweighs the need for paying the cash when high value items go bang before they are due.
You will never have to weigh up the cost of a replacement when one is in doubt, as there is no financial outlay on your part to do so and believe me you will once you get your third 200k bill for the year, you will then contemplate giving your right arm for a fully covered airframe....
Getting an airframe on fixed costs will give you a safer operation, the same goes for using outside maintenance providers, in general they will not cut corners to keep you going, your own A&P may well do, even without your knowledge.
Limiting risk and exposure should be your primary concern, not trying to be clever and safe a few bucks here and there.
You stated that you would use the aircraft for personal trips, are you really contemplating putting your family and loved ones on an aircraft where cost of operating it was the primary concern? Should that not be safety.
I can't put a price on my nearest and dearest, can you?
Stop thinking cost, that word should not even enter the equation. Find the safest way of operating your own aircraft, if that means that the cost skyrockets and you can now not afford your own aircraft, then go stand in the queue again at your local airport and fly the airlines.
For a second anecdotal comparison, there are years where our cost are far greater than if we would have chartered for that year, but that is never an issue, for us it is all about the convenience and the inhouse control.
When it comes to operating your own aircraft, if you have to ask "how much" then you can't afford it.
Last edited by cldrvr; 11th Apr 2013 at 12:38.
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In which case, one asks,-"Why the hell are you considering flying all your key personnel in the same aircraft at the same time?
I don't believe this biz jet "requirement" will actually get off the ground - the premise and potential execution (from the outside) looks a bit odd!
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Going to pursue the Westwind II option the combination of hours only inspections and market forces driving the purchase prices of even the best units to all time lows combine to make it the best fit for the near term. We will be going naked on this no systems coverage of any kind. Just doesn't make sense to lock in an hourly rate of 4-6 times that of simply buying another airplane, crazy low purchase prices with no drop in the hourly rates for coverage has turned this all upside down.
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Or why don't they just buy a company house at the location of the business where, presumably they have all been working (seeing as it just been sold!).
Company currently in location X, purchaser in location Y company is be moved from X to Y. I am actually moving to location Z. Location Y is a s___hole deep in the confederacy I would rather have a gunshot wound than live there, in fact my wife would probably oblige with the gunshot wound if I even suggested it.
Last edited by Trimup; 7th May 2013 at 13:56.
Best of success to you with your plan Trimup. I'll just offer these few pieces of unsolicited advice:
Hire a full-time captain with extensive Westwind experience to keep track of the flight operations end. This person must be strong enough professionally to stand up to you for your own good, yet be regarded as a loyal team player. This is who will be the main point of contact between you, the airplane and the mx folks. They don't come cheap so don't expect them to be a house boy or gofer. There may be lots of pilots wanting a job right how many can really handle the responsibilities other than the flying? Are you a stepping stone to a better job? Someone worthy of the job won't be easy to find so you'd be well advised to start looking soonest. It's you, your team and your family who must rely upon this individual to look after their best interests even when business/cost considerations conflict. It's a fine line sometimes, but one you don't want to get on the wrong side of. Resume, experience, interview, references and so forth are good screening methods but the bottom line is who can you rely on to make the right choices when they aren't easy to make. Just something to consider.
The Westwind is a solid old bit of flying iron, but requires care and knowledge to operate effectively and safely. Performance is a critical issue with the mountain airports and sometimes you'll have to plan fuel stops when it doesn't seem necessary but is. At 30 degrees C ( not that uncommon in August and July) in EGE, you're not going 750 NM with 8 pax. But there's several good fuel stops within range. As with the midwest, the "confederacy" has some interesting seasonal weather which may affect planned flights too, but in my experience the WW is a good compromise of cost and capability. With the right people, you'll do well.
Best wishes in your aviation (ad)venture!
westhawk
Hire a full-time captain with extensive Westwind experience to keep track of the flight operations end. This person must be strong enough professionally to stand up to you for your own good, yet be regarded as a loyal team player. This is who will be the main point of contact between you, the airplane and the mx folks. They don't come cheap so don't expect them to be a house boy or gofer. There may be lots of pilots wanting a job right how many can really handle the responsibilities other than the flying? Are you a stepping stone to a better job? Someone worthy of the job won't be easy to find so you'd be well advised to start looking soonest. It's you, your team and your family who must rely upon this individual to look after their best interests even when business/cost considerations conflict. It's a fine line sometimes, but one you don't want to get on the wrong side of. Resume, experience, interview, references and so forth are good screening methods but the bottom line is who can you rely on to make the right choices when they aren't easy to make. Just something to consider.
The Westwind is a solid old bit of flying iron, but requires care and knowledge to operate effectively and safely. Performance is a critical issue with the mountain airports and sometimes you'll have to plan fuel stops when it doesn't seem necessary but is. At 30 degrees C ( not that uncommon in August and July) in EGE, you're not going 750 NM with 8 pax. But there's several good fuel stops within range. As with the midwest, the "confederacy" has some interesting seasonal weather which may affect planned flights too, but in my experience the WW is a good compromise of cost and capability. With the right people, you'll do well.
Best wishes in your aviation (ad)venture!
westhawk
Last edited by westhawk; 7th May 2013 at 04:16.
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WW
Going to pursue the Westwind II option the combination of hours only inspections and market forces driving the purchase prices of even the best units to all time lows combine to make it the best fit for the near term. We will be going naked on this no systems coverage of any kind. Just doesn't make sense to lock in an hourly rate of 4-6 times that of simply buying another airplane, crazy low purchase prices with no drop in the hourly rates for coverage has turned this all upside down.
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Hire a full-time captain with extensive Westwind experience to keep track of the flight operations end.
The Westwind is a solid old bit of flying iron, but requires care and knowledge to operate effectively and safely. Performance is a critical issue with the mountain airports and sometimes you'll have to plan fuel stops when it doesn't seem necessary but is. At 30 degrees C ( not that uncommon in August and July) in EGE, you're not going 750 NM with 8 pax. But there's several good fuel stops within range.
Thanks for the input.
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A Westwind is a great choice. I have over 4000 hrs flying both the 1 and the 2. Get a good prebuy. In my experience Trimech in KFTW is by far the most competent MX facility for the Westwind line.
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So we have been up and running with the Westwind since July without issues. Bought two units one with fresh inspections, an immaculate recent interior and updated avionics and the other with just done engines but an interior that looks like it was used to haul a team of sled dogs. Got both for a song from a corporate owner who just wanted them gone for their fiscal year end. Engines on the clean unit are almost run out now. We have not spent a dime on them in 450hrs beyond fuel and standard care, they came to us naked, no prepays. The MX provider we have been using has offered to swap the engines between the airframes for zero cash, he keeps the run out engines. No cash is always tempting but I don't yet know what the old engines are worth on the open market so it may not be a smart deal.
Second concern is possible need for an alternate/additional aircraft with longer legs. Handover is proceeding well and new owners have floated the idea of using my team to help them move up the time table for a division in location C instead of waiting until they can do it themselves. They are willing to cover all costs on the same terms. Location C is about 6500nm from our home airport. There are sufficient tech stops to make the trip in the Westwind but I don't think it would be much fun. I am considering a GII/III like say this 1977 GULFSTREAM IISP Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com or this 1982 GULFSTREAM III Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com but am not sure if IISP/B have the eight passenger range necessary to go the distance with a single stop. All three seem to have solid reputations amongst the pilots I have asked. Fuel consumption is the only negative that comes up again and again but since I get to hang that millstone around somebody else's neck it is a non issue in my decision. I realize Speys have the reputation for being expensive but it seems all but certain that only a few of the very nicest G-1159s are going to be hushed and the bulk sold dirt cheap or scrapped, so even going naked on them should not actually represent a very large financial risk. I could always buy a second airframe with solid engines when the market bottoms out in another year or so.
Second concern is possible need for an alternate/additional aircraft with longer legs. Handover is proceeding well and new owners have floated the idea of using my team to help them move up the time table for a division in location C instead of waiting until they can do it themselves. They are willing to cover all costs on the same terms. Location C is about 6500nm from our home airport. There are sufficient tech stops to make the trip in the Westwind but I don't think it would be much fun. I am considering a GII/III like say this 1977 GULFSTREAM IISP Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com or this 1982 GULFSTREAM III Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com but am not sure if IISP/B have the eight passenger range necessary to go the distance with a single stop. All three seem to have solid reputations amongst the pilots I have asked. Fuel consumption is the only negative that comes up again and again but since I get to hang that millstone around somebody else's neck it is a non issue in my decision. I realize Speys have the reputation for being expensive but it seems all but certain that only a few of the very nicest G-1159s are going to be hushed and the bulk sold dirt cheap or scrapped, so even going naked on them should not actually represent a very large financial risk. I could always buy a second airframe with solid engines when the market bottoms out in another year or so.
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If location C is in europe, forget G-II or G-III.
F900B/C is a good option but costs to run will be a lot higher than the westwind.
Early G-IV? CL601/CL604 cheaper to run but will struggle to take 8 PAX 3250nm (would need to know routings).
F900B/C is a good option but costs to run will be a lot higher than the westwind.
Early G-IV? CL601/CL604 cheaper to run but will struggle to take 8 PAX 3250nm (would need to know routings).
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for minimal running costs with 500 hrs per year why look at some of this expensive machinery? Think also of parts availability!
With 1400 nm range required and a usual PAX load of 6 people (maybe more) The obvious choice would be the older generation Citations! Look at a Citation 5 or if you want better economy with Fantastic range the S2 Citation one which I ferried from Florida to South Africa and which would meet your mission profile at minimal cost.
Pace
With 1400 nm range required and a usual PAX load of 6 people (maybe more) The obvious choice would be the older generation Citations! Look at a Citation 5 or if you want better economy with Fantastic range the S2 Citation one which I ferried from Florida to South Africa and which would meet your mission profile at minimal cost.
Pace
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If you are looking at potentially buying two old Hawkers, one to operate and one to use for parts due to lack of available parts, you are looking at an initial investment of how much? 900K - 1.3m for the pair? Then you are, correctly, stating that the aircraft is probably impossible to sell in 2020 and you may have to write it off completely.
Why not buy an old, well maintained and refurbished, Falcon 50? This you will at least be able to sell for parts in 2020 due to the relatively large global fleet.
With cash available I'm guessing you can get one for just over $1m and parts will never be a problem for you. Lot's of qualified pilots available to fly it as well, qualified maintenance facilities will not be a problem either.
I'm pretty sure the total loss on your investment will be less with this option than in the case of buying a Hawker 700A or Sabraliner for example and the Falcon is cheaper to operate then the Gulfstreams you are mentioning.
Whatever you decide to go for, good luck with it!
CP
Why not buy an old, well maintained and refurbished, Falcon 50? This you will at least be able to sell for parts in 2020 due to the relatively large global fleet.
With cash available I'm guessing you can get one for just over $1m and parts will never be a problem for you. Lot's of qualified pilots available to fly it as well, qualified maintenance facilities will not be a problem either.
I'm pretty sure the total loss on your investment will be less with this option than in the case of buying a Hawker 700A or Sabraliner for example and the Falcon is cheaper to operate then the Gulfstreams you are mentioning.
Whatever you decide to go for, good luck with it!
CP
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Old Iron
With 1400 nm range required and a usual PAX load of 6 people (maybe more) The obvious choice would be the older generation Citations! Look at a Citation 5 or if you want better economy with Fantastic range the S2 Citation one which I ferried from Florida to South Africa and which would meet your mission profile at minimal cost.
Not sure if you read the ops post correctly. He is already operating a Westwind, but now may have to do a 6500NM flight. The WW has more range than the Citations you mentioned but he doesn't want to do it in the WW because at 6500nm you are possibly looking at 4 legs. He is wanting to do it in 2 legs.
To the op,
I would stay away from the early GIIB/G3s due to the noise issues. If you buy one with hushed Speys then your are paying quite a bit more and you will still have a disposable aircraft in 2020. My suggestion is to get with a reputable broker and find you a good early G4. The prices have dropped considerably and you will still have some equity in 2020 when you want to get out of it. It would do the what you are asking in 2 legs, even against most of the winter headwinds.
g450cpt
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While a used straight Falcon 50 would work, having eight passengers in a 50 for its maximum range, would be uncomfortable for them.
However, a used Falcon 900B* would fit the bill nicely, with lower operational costs than a GII/III. Admittedly the initial purshase cost of 900 is higher, but it is not a throw way airframe as the G-II/III are and it will retain a resale value.
The 900B can easily make a 6,500 mile trip with one stop with anywhere near normal conditions.
* There are no straight 900s left, all were modified to the B. Least that is what I was told by Dassault.
However, a used Falcon 900B* would fit the bill nicely, with lower operational costs than a GII/III. Admittedly the initial purshase cost of 900 is higher, but it is not a throw way airframe as the G-II/III are and it will retain a resale value.
The 900B can easily make a 6,500 mile trip with one stop with anywhere near normal conditions.
* There are no straight 900s left, all were modified to the B. Least that is what I was told by Dassault.
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I was thinking GIII with hushed Speys would be a solid compromise. I couldn't poke many holes in Hubbards logic. Read it for yourself here Hubbard Aviation Technologies QS3 Hushkit . That combined with this
Maintenance Costs Dropping for Spey-powered Gulfstreams | Aviation International News seemed to reinforce the idea. As for ideas that involve "saving money" by buying a more expensive aircraft because one can plan(hope) for a higher residual many years in the future, that is a bet for another player. I learned many years ago that the only sure way to limit downside risk is limit the money put on the table at the beginning. Works in Vegas. Works in business.
That being said a G-IV option is intriguing, say if Wendy's could be convinced to take their medicine on 1994 GULFSTREAM IVSP Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com the FAA registry and their financials indicate they have already gone to using Netjets to meet their aviation needs. My perfunctory research says $600-800K total for the ten years on the engines.
Maintenance Costs Dropping for Spey-powered Gulfstreams | Aviation International News seemed to reinforce the idea. As for ideas that involve "saving money" by buying a more expensive aircraft because one can plan(hope) for a higher residual many years in the future, that is a bet for another player. I learned many years ago that the only sure way to limit downside risk is limit the money put on the table at the beginning. Works in Vegas. Works in business.
That being said a G-IV option is intriguing, say if Wendy's could be convinced to take their medicine on 1994 GULFSTREAM IVSP Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com the FAA registry and their financials indicate they have already gone to using Netjets to meet their aviation needs. My perfunctory research says $600-800K total for the ten years on the engines.