Flying GA on the same day as your airline job
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Flying GA on the same day as your airline job
A friend came up with a problem.
Is there any law prohibiting an airline pilot which just landed a commercial jet after a for example 10-hour flight from getting home, changing out of his uniform into his jeans and sweater and driving to the nearest small airport to grab a 172 and taking off with 3 friends on board?
Is there a law to prohibit him from flying commercially in that Cessna, let's say instruction work?
The pilot is Dutch and his airline job is under EU-OPS and he has (for now) a JAR-FCL license.
Of course this is stupid, because the guy is probably dead-tired(.eu
), so nobody would try this. But I hope there is also some law that would prevent this, but I can't seem to find it.
Is there any law prohibiting an airline pilot which just landed a commercial jet after a for example 10-hour flight from getting home, changing out of his uniform into his jeans and sweater and driving to the nearest small airport to grab a 172 and taking off with 3 friends on board?
Is there a law to prohibit him from flying commercially in that Cessna, let's say instruction work?
The pilot is Dutch and his airline job is under EU-OPS and he has (for now) a JAR-FCL license.
Of course this is stupid, because the guy is probably dead-tired(.eu
), so nobody would try this. But I hope there is also some law that would prevent this, but I can't seem to find it.
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I know this guy, who does this (specifics omitted for obvious reasons)
- operates from home base in europe to LHR
- goes to nearby GA airfield and jumps in light plane
- flies to another GA airfield
- does instructing all afternoon
- pub all night
- coffee & fag
- more instructing all morning
- light plane + rental car back to LHR
- operates to home base
He does it for fun.
- operates from home base in europe to LHR
- goes to nearby GA airfield and jumps in light plane
- flies to another GA airfield
- does instructing all afternoon
- pub all night
- coffee & fag
- more instructing all morning
- light plane + rental car back to LHR
- operates to home base
He does it for fun.
I understand that so long as the pilot in question does not exceed the total FDT for the day/week/month, no matter what aircraft or company, then there should be no issues regarding legal FDT.
There may be issues with his airline employer if the employer does not permit the pilot to fly any other aircraft on his time off, because this will impact his rest periods etc... If the airline allows the pilot to fly other aircraft or other companies planes with no other restrictions (except total allowable FDT) then the only restriction would be the FDT limits.
I stand to be corrected
There may be issues with his airline employer if the employer does not permit the pilot to fly any other aircraft on his time off, because this will impact his rest periods etc... If the airline allows the pilot to fly other aircraft or other companies planes with no other restrictions (except total allowable FDT) then the only restriction would be the FDT limits.
I stand to be corrected
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If its an EU AOC on EU-ops.
Your can go fly private under 1600kg and it doesn't go against anything. So as long as they are cost sharing or paying for the whole lot with thier mates (ppl rules) no problem. And nothing counts towards FTL's
If its instructing its counted as work and has to be included in the FTL's.
It is just as if he is flying his work machine.
Ie his FDP finishs when he stops instructing for the day and his duty period 15 mins afterwards. He then requires the previous Duty period as rest. If he instructs before work it counts as a sector and his FDP starts when he starts instructing.
The hours go towards his totals for the month and the year. And also cancel rest days as well.
It doesn't matter if the instruction is payed or not, its counted as work.
Gliding on the other hand isn't counted at all, instructing or otherwise.
Your can go fly private under 1600kg and it doesn't go against anything. So as long as they are cost sharing or paying for the whole lot with thier mates (ppl rules) no problem. And nothing counts towards FTL's
If its instructing its counted as work and has to be included in the FTL's.
It is just as if he is flying his work machine.
Ie his FDP finishs when he stops instructing for the day and his duty period 15 mins afterwards. He then requires the previous Duty period as rest. If he instructs before work it counts as a sector and his FDP starts when he starts instructing.
The hours go towards his totals for the month and the year. And also cancel rest days as well.
It doesn't matter if the instruction is payed or not, its counted as work.
Gliding on the other hand isn't counted at all, instructing or otherwise.
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Allright thanks for the answers. I guess it is up to ones own professionalism how to handle it. I haven't really had the problem myself because I don't want to fall asleep towing gliders or whatever, so I usually only fly on my days off. But I wondered whether there would be any legislation.
Where could I find that 1600 kg number you guys are talking about? It doesn't really ring a bell..
Where could I find that 1600 kg number you guys are talking about? It doesn't really ring a bell..
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Its in EU ops basically its to limit you to a low performance piston.
If its private you are fine as soon as its deemed work it needs to go in.
If you fly a tug on your days off unfortaunatley it cancels your day off in FTL's.
If its private you are fine as soon as its deemed work it needs to go in.
If you fly a tug on your days off unfortaunatley it cancels your day off in FTL's.
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I'd be very careful about what the contract / OM of his airline employer says, because usually there's a clause prohibiting any other commercial flying, unless the employer is informed about it and gave approval.
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I know this guy as well. He has to instruct since his airline pay is so miserable. He drinks to forget about his first wife who has his house, and his second who took his dog and sports car. He drinks coffee 24/7 because he is too junior to get a roster that sees the sun...
So not a thing wrong with this activity.
FR
So not a thing wrong with this activity.
FR
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Any airline I've ever worked for prohibits off-duty "COMMERCIAL" flying without written approval from the CP....
The key is the definition of "Commercial"...Whether you are instructing your buddy in his own plane for free, the minute you sign that logbook certifying the instruction it becomes "Commercial"...
The key is the definition of "Commercial"...Whether you are instructing your buddy in his own plane for free, the minute you sign that logbook certifying the instruction it becomes "Commercial"...
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All three of the 121 operations that I have flown for have prohibited commercial flying outside of the company without written approval as well.
They each defined "commercial" flying as flights for 121 or 135 certificate holders, since flight and duty times were all monitored.
FR
They each defined "commercial" flying as flights for 121 or 135 certificate holders, since flight and duty times were all monitored.
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Its not even compnany that stops you doing it.
Its EU-OPS.
Unless you have holiday or 3 days off(not required) in a row you can only really do a bit before or after a shift if there is room for you to use the time without incuring a penalty in your rest period.
Most of us that enjoy instructing have banged our heads up against this. Even if the company is supportive very quickly it becomes a bit of a nightmare with FTL's.
Some guys try to get round it by just not logging anything which is of course illegal.
And others just ignore the fact that they are busting FTL's and don;t tell company.
I only know one person third hand that got caught instructing on thier days off. And they were grounded for 2 months, 1 month to get thier 900hours in limits and 1 month to teach them a lesson. They were very lucky to keep thier job as they had enough leave to cover 6 weeks and they had an OPC anyway at the end of the 2 months.
Its EU-OPS.
Unless you have holiday or 3 days off(not required) in a row you can only really do a bit before or after a shift if there is room for you to use the time without incuring a penalty in your rest period.
Most of us that enjoy instructing have banged our heads up against this. Even if the company is supportive very quickly it becomes a bit of a nightmare with FTL's.
Some guys try to get round it by just not logging anything which is of course illegal.
And others just ignore the fact that they are busting FTL's and don;t tell company.
I only know one person third hand that got caught instructing on thier days off. And they were grounded for 2 months, 1 month to get thier 900hours in limits and 1 month to teach them a lesson. They were very lucky to keep thier job as they had enough leave to cover 6 weeks and they had an OPC anyway at the end of the 2 months.
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The Swiss report on the Crossair 'Jumbolina' crash a few years ago went into great detail regarding the captain instructing for the morning prior to the fatal flight on the same day. Standard practice for investigators.
Rob
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Two questions for now:
Do FAA and JAA have standard interpretations of what "counts" towards time flown? Please site references, I realize that inspectors in the same bloody office can be on opposite sides of this creek.
Did the "Jumbolina" report cite regs in regards to this?
Just asking, as I always like to know what regs I'm about to violate....
FR
Do FAA and JAA have standard interpretations of what "counts" towards time flown? Please site references, I realize that inspectors in the same bloody office can be on opposite sides of this creek.
Did the "Jumbolina" report cite regs in regards to this?
Just asking, as I always like to know what regs I'm about to violate....
FR
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Frank...Not to sound mean, but if you "want to know which regs" you are vilolating, you probably either 1.) Shouldn't be doing it ...or 2.) Should maybe consider a career as an instructor instead of trying ways to skirt regulations when you are employed as an Airline Pilot...
P.S.- Cause that's where the first link in the proverbial "chain" starts...
P.S.- Cause that's where the first link in the proverbial "chain" starts...
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The ariel work bit is in article 259 of the UK ANO
And the weight restriction in Part 20 article 144.
This was taken from JAR-OPS before JAR-OPS you could instruct in your spare time if your Company was under a UK CAA AOC. When everyone went JAR-OPS you had to stop.
Where it is in EU-OPS I don't know.
CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | About the CAA
I don;t have a clue what the FAA rules are.
And the weight restriction in Part 20 article 144.
This was taken from JAR-OPS before JAR-OPS you could instruct in your spare time if your Company was under a UK CAA AOC. When everyone went JAR-OPS you had to stop.
Where it is in EU-OPS I don't know.
CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | About the CAA
I don;t have a clue what the FAA rules are.
