Females only!
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Females only!
I'm doing an extended project on Women in Aviation specifically “How are women represented in the aviation industry and is this regarded positively?” and I am researching the topic. (This includes mechanics, air traffic controllers as well as pilots)I have found lots of male opinions on the subject from war times and some on present day. Many are negative with reasons such as 'women aren't capable of flying' to 'women should be stay at home mothers'. Obviously there are lots of positive opinions as well.
But, I want to know what women think about women flying. Have you found any problems in achieving your role of a pilot (if you've done that) or prejudice in training or actually in your job? Are males and females equally supportive of you? What were your views of the aviation industry before you joined and were they proved right? Do you think women in the 1930's and during the war had positive impacts on the aviation industry? Is there anything else you'd like to say that may help with my question?
I guess males can answer too, if they feel so inclined.
Thanks
This thread is also posted in Private Flying (so check there before you reply!
)
But, I want to know what women think about women flying. Have you found any problems in achieving your role of a pilot (if you've done that) or prejudice in training or actually in your job? Are males and females equally supportive of you? What were your views of the aviation industry before you joined and were they proved right? Do you think women in the 1930's and during the war had positive impacts on the aviation industry? Is there anything else you'd like to say that may help with my question?
I guess males can answer too, if they feel so inclined.
Thanks
This thread is also posted in Private Flying (so check there before you reply!
)
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Hannah, I think it is not easy to answer your questions, as they most likely have changed quite a lot during the last 50 years...
Maybe its a good idea to contact women flyers associations such as the german VDP:
Vereinigung Deutscher Pilotinnen e.V.
If you look up the links, you`ll find other sites, like the 99ers, the whirly girls etc.
Also you might try BALPA BALPA | British Airline Pilots Association | UK maybe they have a female pilots working group or the like...
Maybe its a good idea to contact women flyers associations such as the german VDP:
Vereinigung Deutscher Pilotinnen e.V.
If you look up the links, you`ll find other sites, like the 99ers, the whirly girls etc.
Also you might try BALPA BALPA | British Airline Pilots Association | UK maybe they have a female pilots working group or the like...
Last edited by His dudeness; 12th Dec 2012 at 13:34.
Females only!
Hannah,
The only discrimination towards women that I have seen has been of the positive kind.
I think true equality can only be achieved once people stop caring about what gender/race/age etc an individual is and stop caring about quotas. I personally couldn't give a damn who gets any job as long as they are recruited as the best of the available applicants.
If someone can do the job that is being asked of them then who cares who they are?!
This may come across as an early morning rant due to a crap nights sleep and a naive, even utopian, view but its just the way I feel.
I'm sure someone will be along soon to challenge my first sentence but I'm just saying it as I see it.
BV
The only discrimination towards women that I have seen has been of the positive kind.
I think true equality can only be achieved once people stop caring about what gender/race/age etc an individual is and stop caring about quotas. I personally couldn't give a damn who gets any job as long as they are recruited as the best of the available applicants.
If someone can do the job that is being asked of them then who cares who they are?!
This may come across as an early morning rant due to a crap nights sleep and a naive, even utopian, view but its just the way I feel.
I'm sure someone will be along soon to challenge my first sentence but I'm just saying it as I see it.
BV
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One tidbit that might be useful is that I've seen that there are two kinds of women in aviation:
a. the kind who are actually really, really good at what they do (pilot, atc, etc); either because they feel they have to beat the boys at everything or because they want to defeat prejudice, chauvinism etc. (real or perceived) by being beyond reproach skills-wise. Sometimes this results in them developing a bit of a "thick skin" as a result of constant teasing, and therefore being a bit humourless and boring.
Those who make it into the higher echelons of aviation e.g. chief pilot, captain etc. seem to have a tougher time getting there and are thus usually excellent at what they do.
b. the kind who rely on being a "girly girl" and use their influence / feminine guiles on the rest of the (usually male) flight deck crew / ops / etc to manipulate / gain favours / excuse incompetence. Thankfully, these are fairly rare.
This is of course a grey area and the majority of our female aviation colleagues are competent yet good fun; of this I have much anecdotal evidence.
One other thing - ground ops / dispatch in the UK seems to be much more of a sausagefest than in Europe. One place I recently worked at had 4 chaps and I think 7 or 8 women in the ops dept. I think this is due to ex-military and aspiring pilot types being prevalent in the UK whereas in the EU it's more of an administrative thing, and also more of a career rather than a stepping stone.
Feel free to PM if you want me to elaborate on anything. Good luck with your project!
a. the kind who are actually really, really good at what they do (pilot, atc, etc); either because they feel they have to beat the boys at everything or because they want to defeat prejudice, chauvinism etc. (real or perceived) by being beyond reproach skills-wise. Sometimes this results in them developing a bit of a "thick skin" as a result of constant teasing, and therefore being a bit humourless and boring.
Those who make it into the higher echelons of aviation e.g. chief pilot, captain etc. seem to have a tougher time getting there and are thus usually excellent at what they do.
b. the kind who rely on being a "girly girl" and use their influence / feminine guiles on the rest of the (usually male) flight deck crew / ops / etc to manipulate / gain favours / excuse incompetence. Thankfully, these are fairly rare.
This is of course a grey area and the majority of our female aviation colleagues are competent yet good fun; of this I have much anecdotal evidence.
One other thing - ground ops / dispatch in the UK seems to be much more of a sausagefest than in Europe. One place I recently worked at had 4 chaps and I think 7 or 8 women in the ops dept. I think this is due to ex-military and aspiring pilot types being prevalent in the UK whereas in the EU it's more of an administrative thing, and also more of a career rather than a stepping stone.
Feel free to PM if you want me to elaborate on anything. Good luck with your project!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I've got some thoughts and observations.
I'll read the other forum first and reply either later today or tomorrow.
I'll read the other forum first and reply either later today or tomorrow.
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Being female is a gender, not a qualification, and as such it should be disregarded for employment puposes. Unfortunately, this does not always seem to be the case.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Whilst I found that during flight training I was not treated differently, it's the over all experience that's different. Guys would be encouraged to learn more about the career whereas gals not so much.
I was fortunately to learn with other females, the CFI was one too so the concept of women flying (1980s) was becoming far more common place.
When growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut but it was pretty obvious that there were no women pilots or astronauts (and the military definitely had no female pilots). Therefore, there was no encouragement. Even the school system was against the idea. My cooking teacher said that women couldn't be pilots because of biological/physiological reasons, ie, our bodies couldn't tolerate the G forces.
When I started working in the Kimberley (Australia), my colleagues were great. In fact, consistently throughout my career, my colleagues have never treated me differently. Some pax would balk at having a female pilot but I found a good workaround that sorted that issue.
When I flew turboprops I was occasionally mistaken for an FA. (Bandierante/Twin Otter). Trust me. After loading several hundred kg of freight in humid and hot conditions, I didn't look like an FA! More amusing than any thing else. I do know of one female FO who had a letter written against her claiming all she did was talk to the pilot...
Again, the experience has been similar in Europe. Colleagues are great. Some of the office staff weren't so accepting initially but now they're ok.
Some nationalities have a different cultural view point and this is obvious in various FBOs. Obviously, places like Saudi, we're very much a 2nd class citizen. Just play the game, survive and get out in one piece.
Our predecessors in the ATA in WW2 definitely showed that women could do it but unfortunately, society wasn't ready for equal opportunity. So women had to wait several more decades before we were accepted as pilots en masse.
Best way to get on in a so called "male dominated" although I prefer "target rich"
environment is to be professional. Nothing more.
I was fortunately to learn with other females, the CFI was one too so the concept of women flying (1980s) was becoming far more common place.
When growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut but it was pretty obvious that there were no women pilots or astronauts (and the military definitely had no female pilots). Therefore, there was no encouragement. Even the school system was against the idea. My cooking teacher said that women couldn't be pilots because of biological/physiological reasons, ie, our bodies couldn't tolerate the G forces.
When I started working in the Kimberley (Australia), my colleagues were great. In fact, consistently throughout my career, my colleagues have never treated me differently. Some pax would balk at having a female pilot but I found a good workaround that sorted that issue.
When I flew turboprops I was occasionally mistaken for an FA. (Bandierante/Twin Otter). Trust me. After loading several hundred kg of freight in humid and hot conditions, I didn't look like an FA! More amusing than any thing else. I do know of one female FO who had a letter written against her claiming all she did was talk to the pilot...
Again, the experience has been similar in Europe. Colleagues are great. Some of the office staff weren't so accepting initially but now they're ok.
Some nationalities have a different cultural view point and this is obvious in various FBOs. Obviously, places like Saudi, we're very much a 2nd class citizen. Just play the game, survive and get out in one piece.
Our predecessors in the ATA in WW2 definitely showed that women could do it but unfortunately, society wasn't ready for equal opportunity. So women had to wait several more decades before we were accepted as pilots en masse.
Best way to get on in a so called "male dominated" although I prefer "target rich"
environment is to be professional. Nothing more.
I'm a bloke so my opinion may not count, however...
Some of the best pilots I've known have been female, and some of the worst male. Also, some of the best pilots I've known were male & some of the worst female.
After 30 years in this industry you know what I reckon? Gender has nothing to do with it.
Some of the best pilots I've known have been female, and some of the worst male. Also, some of the best pilots I've known were male & some of the worst female.
After 30 years in this industry you know what I reckon? Gender has nothing to do with it.
environment is to be professional. Nothing more.
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I had female gliding instructors.
I had female helicopter instructor (whom I flew with happily, not because I had to etc, while she flew for the flight school..)
Unfortunately, I haven't had (except demo flights) female students yet.
I showed my lady gliding over year ago, see if she'd be up for it after demo. Not really. I haven't instructed much, but I'm looking forward to have female students, be it helicopters or airplanes (later).
But, as MALE, as soon as I state (not ideal) reality that women are more 'visible'/memorable etc when it comes to recruitment, be it for the more pleasing looks (all the pilot skills being equal/similar as well as experience), 'affirmative action'/quota or whatever, I'm called the worst male chauvinist, sexist etc etc. I'm sick of this, I'd say very American way of over the top PC crap. One can't say one single thing that'd be possibly negative in respect to any sort of minority without receiving flak, even if it's not made up.
Somehow, it's more predominant, this downright slagging online, as pilots I talked to in person, share my views on the topic, as well as also welcome ladies in aviation.
In rotary world, the amount, or rather almost lack, of women, is more than fixed wing. So male pilots appreciate female pilots more.
I had female helicopter instructor (whom I flew with happily, not because I had to etc, while she flew for the flight school..)
Unfortunately, I haven't had (except demo flights) female students yet.
I showed my lady gliding over year ago, see if she'd be up for it after demo. Not really. I haven't instructed much, but I'm looking forward to have female students, be it helicopters or airplanes (later).
But, as MALE, as soon as I state (not ideal) reality that women are more 'visible'/memorable etc when it comes to recruitment, be it for the more pleasing looks (all the pilot skills being equal/similar as well as experience), 'affirmative action'/quota or whatever, I'm called the worst male chauvinist, sexist etc etc. I'm sick of this, I'd say very American way of over the top PC crap. One can't say one single thing that'd be possibly negative in respect to any sort of minority without receiving flak, even if it's not made up.
Somehow, it's more predominant, this downright slagging online, as pilots I talked to in person, share my views on the topic, as well as also welcome ladies in aviation.
In rotary world, the amount, or rather almost lack, of women, is more than fixed wing. So male pilots appreciate female pilots more.
I learnt to fly in 1959. My instructor was a woman, she demanded high standards but did so in an encouraging humane way - exactly what a good instructor should do.
Later in my career I came across several male instructors who seemed more interested in their egos and who tended to browbeat the pupils.
As others have said on this thread, gender is not an issue what matters is competence and being good to those around you.
Later in my career I came across several male instructors who seemed more interested in their egos and who tended to browbeat the pupils.
As others have said on this thread, gender is not an issue what matters is competence and being good to those around you.
Ok, so this is another Males perspective, but hopefully gives some kind of extra insight.
Only a few years ago I did a Semester at University for a Bachelor of Aviation. It was a group of about 70 and of them there were 12 Women. What we found was that a few of them had very biased ideas when they came in of being discriminated against straight away, they kept organising special events that were for the Women only, just things like going to movies or attending seminars etc... What they ended up doing was creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where they treated the Males of the group rather poorly and as such the Males ignored those few which made the chips on their shoulders even bigger. The ones who didn't give a hoot about being Female and felt it didn't hinder them at all got along just fine with us and were treated no differently and were no better or worse than the others in our group.
Only a few years ago I did a Semester at University for a Bachelor of Aviation. It was a group of about 70 and of them there were 12 Women. What we found was that a few of them had very biased ideas when they came in of being discriminated against straight away, they kept organising special events that were for the Women only, just things like going to movies or attending seminars etc... What they ended up doing was creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where they treated the Males of the group rather poorly and as such the Males ignored those few which made the chips on their shoulders even bigger. The ones who didn't give a hoot about being Female and felt it didn't hinder them at all got along just fine with us and were treated no differently and were no better or worse than the others in our group.
I have had both good/bad pilots of both genders. I always worry initially with a new female pilot about overstepping the bounds of good decorum, as I am a bit of a CroMagnon Male. I lay it down from the start to B!tchslap me back into position if I do.....
But I do like that rough stuff
But I do like that rough stuff
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Thanks for all your opinions. It's interesting that you seem to have had female instructors but no pupils, do you think less women are learning to fly now as its less of a challenge for them to do something different? Or are they just interested in other things?
What you said about women expecting to be treated differently so act different so are, makes a lot of sense too and there are a lot of women only groups in aviation but I think girls need to know there are others doing the same as then, men will always find other men at their airfield to talk to.
What you said about women expecting to be treated differently so act different so are, makes a lot of sense too and there are a lot of women only groups in aviation but I think girls need to know there are others doing the same as then, men will always find other men at their airfield to talk to.
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In my experience there are no more, or less, female student pilots than there were 10+ years ago when I was learning.
I don't think that women-only groups necessarily help the situation, because it suggests segregation and special treatment, even if that's not the intention.
I also don't think that there should be an aim or goal to get x% of pilots to be female. Meeting quotas inevitably means that standards have to be changed to accommodate them (this works both ways, by the way - if a group is oversubscribed the cut-off has to be higher, and if a group is under-subscribed the cut-off has to be lower). This in itself leads to inequality between cohorts, which is the exact thing that you don't want. People should be hired on a meritocratic basis and not because of some feature not linked to their ability, such as the colour of their hair or their gender.
I genuinely believe that most women who really want to fly, do fly. And that the numbers we see flying (at least in the Western world) are a reasonably accurate representation of the proportion of women who want to fly. There may be some who still believe 50 year old stereotypes and haven't quite made it into this century. The problem, then, lies with them though and not the rest of society. But trying to force feed a hobby or a career onto people who aren't interested is folly. Supporting those, of any class, any gender, and any ability / disability, who really do want to fly is a much more worthy and relevant cause.
I don't think that women-only groups necessarily help the situation, because it suggests segregation and special treatment, even if that's not the intention.
I also don't think that there should be an aim or goal to get x% of pilots to be female. Meeting quotas inevitably means that standards have to be changed to accommodate them (this works both ways, by the way - if a group is oversubscribed the cut-off has to be higher, and if a group is under-subscribed the cut-off has to be lower). This in itself leads to inequality between cohorts, which is the exact thing that you don't want. People should be hired on a meritocratic basis and not because of some feature not linked to their ability, such as the colour of their hair or their gender.
I genuinely believe that most women who really want to fly, do fly. And that the numbers we see flying (at least in the Western world) are a reasonably accurate representation of the proportion of women who want to fly. There may be some who still believe 50 year old stereotypes and haven't quite made it into this century. The problem, then, lies with them though and not the rest of society. But trying to force feed a hobby or a career onto people who aren't interested is folly. Supporting those, of any class, any gender, and any ability / disability, who really do want to fly is a much more worthy and relevant cause.
Last edited by taybird; 18th Dec 2012 at 13:49. Reason: Typo
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Hi,
I am a female pilot.
I don't think I have received negative discrimination because I am a female.
I have applied myself like any other pilot, male or female and put in a lot of work to achieve my goals and then to finally land a job.
If you want to get some information, there is the Women in Aviation. They are a worldwide organisation.
I fly because I love it, plain and simple. No one has ever influenced my decision to become a pilot, but myself. (I know no one in my family who has been in aviation). I have thought long and hard why I wanted to take this path in life, and I think its just "in my blood", instinctual. I have tried doing other things, but I seem to bounce right back to flying. It is who I am!! (Male OR Female!)
Good luck with your project!
Skysurfer
I am a female pilot.
I don't think I have received negative discrimination because I am a female.
I have applied myself like any other pilot, male or female and put in a lot of work to achieve my goals and then to finally land a job.
If you want to get some information, there is the Women in Aviation. They are a worldwide organisation.
I fly because I love it, plain and simple. No one has ever influenced my decision to become a pilot, but myself. (I know no one in my family who has been in aviation). I have thought long and hard why I wanted to take this path in life, and I think its just "in my blood", instinctual. I have tried doing other things, but I seem to bounce right back to flying. It is who I am!! (Male OR Female!)
Good luck with your project!
Skysurfer
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Does the name Muriel Hind mean anything to forumites? Perhaps not, because she was one of the first women to ride a motorcycle. She became skilled, showing speed and reliability. This did not got down well in some male circles. A letter to "Motorcycling", a periodical of the time (1912) states; "I am decidely against ladies taking part in competiton of any sort. A girl's ambition is (sic) generally to look pretty, but this cannot be gained by riding a motorcycle."
No doubt the likes of Marjorie Stinson, Bessie Coleman, Harriet Quimby and others, met the same sort of opposition from similar males who thought they were in charge by right.
I have never had the slightest problem, being driven/flown by professionals of either gender, having always assumed that having qualified, they can do the job. Unlike some.
I remember being on a flight back from Bilbao to LHR and the landing was heavy. "Typical women driver!" said the guy next to me. What he didn't know that the same aircraft landed even heavier at Bilbao the previous day, piloted by a man, (who had the good grace to apologise) His female colleague on the return trip did the same, which led me to think the problem might have been with the aircraft or conditions.
As a 71 year old male, I had hoped that we were well past the point of assuming that because the pilot/driver does not have testicles, she is incapable of controlling machinery. Pat Moss-Carlsson and Michelle Mouton, might have something to say about that.
No doubt the likes of Marjorie Stinson, Bessie Coleman, Harriet Quimby and others, met the same sort of opposition from similar males who thought they were in charge by right.
I have never had the slightest problem, being driven/flown by professionals of either gender, having always assumed that having qualified, they can do the job. Unlike some.
I remember being on a flight back from Bilbao to LHR and the landing was heavy. "Typical women driver!" said the guy next to me. What he didn't know that the same aircraft landed even heavier at Bilbao the previous day, piloted by a man, (who had the good grace to apologise) His female colleague on the return trip did the same, which led me to think the problem might have been with the aircraft or conditions.
As a 71 year old male, I had hoped that we were well past the point of assuming that because the pilot/driver does not have testicles, she is incapable of controlling machinery. Pat Moss-Carlsson and Michelle Mouton, might have something to say about that.
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My father was a flight instructor in WWII, and had both male students (1942) and WASP (female) students (1943-44). His comments were that the washout rate was about equal - and both M and F in general could use a little more solo practice before graduation. He had particular praise for a few of the "girls" who were quite proficient.
Incidentally, he never had any ambition to become a CFI after the war. He was, however, a valued resource for the instructor community, and occasionally tutored a "problem" student - especially in what he called "confidence building" -
slow flight, pattern and landing work, ...
Incidentally, he never had any ambition to become a CFI after the war. He was, however, a valued resource for the instructor community, and occasionally tutored a "problem" student - especially in what he called "confidence building" -
slow flight, pattern and landing work, ...
