Long-term prop aircraft lease
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Tonic - It's fairly easy actually.
The type of lease you need is a wet lease or ACMI. This way, the Aircraft would be supplied to you, with Crew, Maintenance, Insurance. Hence ACMI. The lessor would hold all the licences. You sell the flights / seats and simply pay the operator to fly the flights. You pay for the fuel, landing, handling etc...
Depending on where you want to operate said flights (i.e. what countries, what airports) will determine the type of aircraft / operator you need.
It's only difficult if you make it difficult.
If it is a successful venture, then you could look to save costs by buying the aircraft and getting an AOC for your company. Best to rent in first to test the business model.
FNPL
The type of lease you need is a wet lease or ACMI. This way, the Aircraft would be supplied to you, with Crew, Maintenance, Insurance. Hence ACMI. The lessor would hold all the licences. You sell the flights / seats and simply pay the operator to fly the flights. You pay for the fuel, landing, handling etc...
Depending on where you want to operate said flights (i.e. what countries, what airports) will determine the type of aircraft / operator you need.
It's only difficult if you make it difficult.
If it is a successful venture, then you could look to save costs by buying the aircraft and getting an AOC for your company. Best to rent in first to test the business model.
FNPL
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Tonic
The other problem you would have is the estimated hours at 1200 per annum which is high!
What would you do on down times, maintenance schedules etc? You would probably need two aircraft and a rotation of pilots to cover such an operation as well as the aircraft being a twin not a single!
You would be better talking to a local AOC which is already up and running and seeing if you can do something joint with them.
I would also question how you have come up with the 100 hrs per month?
If its a tourist thing then you may achieve good usage in the tourist season but little or nothing at other times of year!
Unless of course its a summer destination which turns into winter skiing!
You also need to look at the departure and destination airports? Are they equipt to get you in with all kinds of weather?
A semi field in the middle of no where will not do!
Pace
The other problem you would have is the estimated hours at 1200 per annum which is high!
What would you do on down times, maintenance schedules etc? You would probably need two aircraft and a rotation of pilots to cover such an operation as well as the aircraft being a twin not a single!
You would be better talking to a local AOC which is already up and running and seeing if you can do something joint with them.
I would also question how you have come up with the 100 hrs per month?
If its a tourist thing then you may achieve good usage in the tourist season but little or nothing at other times of year!
Unless of course its a summer destination which turns into winter skiing!
You also need to look at the departure and destination airports? Are they equipt to get you in with all kinds of weather?
A semi field in the middle of no where will not do!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Oct 2012 at 12:24.
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TP, you say that it isn't like you were trying to set up an airline......but that's exactly what you are asking to do. Everyone else here knows that and it is difficult to believe that a CPL holder didn't know that.
Carrying fare-paying passengers is a charter operation and requires an Air Operator Certificate for the company; a mini- airline, if you will. That costs a lot of money and time to set up and requires several well qualified people on the payroll.
Leasing an aircraft is not like leasing a house. It costs you for every hour you fly and your lessor will require a guaranteed minimum hours per month. It is tough to find a turboprop that will seat 10-15 pax without entering the realms of Emissions Trading and extra regulation due to the weight of such an aircraft. Doing this in all weathers, reliably, in a single will probably not be possible and twins cost more, need bigger runways etc. can you afford a thousand euros an hour to run this bird? That wouldn't be out of the ballpark.
You need to do some serious research and redefine your requirements.
Carrying fare-paying passengers is a charter operation and requires an Air Operator Certificate for the company; a mini- airline, if you will. That costs a lot of money and time to set up and requires several well qualified people on the payroll.
Leasing an aircraft is not like leasing a house. It costs you for every hour you fly and your lessor will require a guaranteed minimum hours per month. It is tough to find a turboprop that will seat 10-15 pax without entering the realms of Emissions Trading and extra regulation due to the weight of such an aircraft. Doing this in all weathers, reliably, in a single will probably not be possible and twins cost more, need bigger runways etc. can you afford a thousand euros an hour to run this bird? That wouldn't be out of the ballpark.
You need to do some serious research and redefine your requirements.
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Ah, some useful responses 
flynowpaylater: Thank you for that info, I will look into what you said.
Pace: Good idea about asking a similar company somewhere. I'll hunt them down and ask/propose a few things. The two airports are indeed suited for worse weather but as has been mentioned, this would be an April-Sept kind of service.
flyingfemme: In my defense, I'm 28 nearly and I got my licenses in Canada when I was about 18 odd.. For the last 8 years, I've been involved in languages - translation, etc, due to the lack of work in aviation. Whilst I admit I should know something, I simply haven't reflected on it so much. I originally didn't plan to talk about the business idea on here anyway - I just wanted to know of a place where I could rent a plane in Eastern Europe and/or the kind of terminology I should use to search Google for various rules/regs... I'd not come here with a business plan without researching anything so the thread has got a little off topic.
A few facts: Pécs, in souther Hungary, is very disconnected from all of Hungary by air, especially Budapest. It's a 3+ hour train journey or more on a coach (done both many times). Pécs is a stunning city - look it up - with endless things to do and I find it a disgrace, to be quite honest, that nobody with more money or no airline companies have closed the gap.
I can't believe I can't get a few people a day into a plane, fly them for 45 mins over Lake Balaton on a beautiful flight into Pécs airport (Pogany) and they pay 50 odd Euros return.
Perhaps you'll not deny the business plan as the tourists are there (and the dozens of hotels I've contact in both cities have expressed interest in advertising, for a fee paid to me, to support the idea. Even 2 flights of 8 people a day! The only downside seems to be ridiculous costs for operation. If I can get a good deal on a plane and something worked out, I know the actual business idea will work.
I could garner support of various councils too, because I'm promoting tourism in Hungary and that spreads money. I think I need to contact a few important people.
Thanks again,
TP
flynowpaylater: Thank you for that info, I will look into what you said.
Pace: Good idea about asking a similar company somewhere. I'll hunt them down and ask/propose a few things. The two airports are indeed suited for worse weather but as has been mentioned, this would be an April-Sept kind of service.
flyingfemme: In my defense, I'm 28 nearly and I got my licenses in Canada when I was about 18 odd.. For the last 8 years, I've been involved in languages - translation, etc, due to the lack of work in aviation. Whilst I admit I should know something, I simply haven't reflected on it so much. I originally didn't plan to talk about the business idea on here anyway - I just wanted to know of a place where I could rent a plane in Eastern Europe and/or the kind of terminology I should use to search Google for various rules/regs... I'd not come here with a business plan without researching anything so the thread has got a little off topic.
A few facts: Pécs, in souther Hungary, is very disconnected from all of Hungary by air, especially Budapest. It's a 3+ hour train journey or more on a coach (done both many times). Pécs is a stunning city - look it up - with endless things to do and I find it a disgrace, to be quite honest, that nobody with more money or no airline companies have closed the gap.
I can't believe I can't get a few people a day into a plane, fly them for 45 mins over Lake Balaton on a beautiful flight into Pécs airport (Pogany) and they pay 50 odd Euros return.
Perhaps you'll not deny the business plan as the tourists are there (and the dozens of hotels I've contact in both cities have expressed interest in advertising, for a fee paid to me, to support the idea. Even 2 flights of 8 people a day! The only downside seems to be ridiculous costs for operation. If I can get a good deal on a plane and something worked out, I know the actual business idea will work.
I could garner support of various councils too, because I'm promoting tourism in Hungary and that spreads money. I think I need to contact a few important people.
Thanks again,
TP
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I can't believe I can't get a few people a day into a plane, fly them for 45 mins over Lake Balaton on a beautiful flight into Pécs airport (Pogany) and they pay 50 odd Euros return.
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I live and learn.
It seems I'll have to approach a set-up and propose the idea.
Of course, it wouldn't be once, it would perhaps be 2 or three times a day.
Shame it all costs so much, really. Seems a waste of airspace and pilots, but you probably worked that out already.
I'll keep you updated.
Thanks again!
It seems I'll have to approach a set-up and propose the idea.
Of course, it wouldn't be once, it would perhaps be 2 or three times a day.
Shame it all costs so much, really. Seems a waste of airspace and pilots, but you probably worked that out already.
I'll keep you updated.
Thanks again!
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Of course, it wouldn't be once, it would perhaps be 2 or three times a day.
Don't want to spoil your dream ... Maybe you come up with something new that nobody else has figured out in 100 years of aviation yet?
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NEWS HEADLINE
Former british premier, gordon brown, has taken his financial acumen and applied it to aviation with a novel twist on hungarian sightseeing tours. He and his business partner, Nicholas Leeson, are hoping to press the Fairey Rotodyne into service to provide a low cost solution to the burgeoning tourist requirement to be flown around over the countryside by CPL holders who have finished their training but cant find jobs.
Former british premier, gordon brown, has taken his financial acumen and applied it to aviation with a novel twist on hungarian sightseeing tours. He and his business partner, Nicholas Leeson, are hoping to press the Fairey Rotodyne into service to provide a low cost solution to the burgeoning tourist requirement to be flown around over the countryside by CPL holders who have finished their training but cant find jobs.
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It's not sightseeing it's connecting two cities as a premium service, targeting tourists.
Don't see the point in your sarcasm? Plus, who says CPL holders? I only said I would as a casual remark - I'd prefer not to, to be honest. I'd prefer Hungarians.
Point is, a lot is going on behind the scenes and I'm in touch with a few pepole here and there, both important, significant and high-up in aviation.
So mock all you wish. I'll do everything I can to find a way to make it work. If it doesn't, I'll abandon it and continue with my normal, relatively ok life anyway!
Best,
TP
Don't see the point in your sarcasm? Plus, who says CPL holders? I only said I would as a casual remark - I'd prefer not to, to be honest. I'd prefer Hungarians.
Point is, a lot is going on behind the scenes and I'm in touch with a few pepole here and there, both important, significant and high-up in aviation.
So mock all you wish. I'll do everything I can to find a way to make it work. If it doesn't, I'll abandon it and continue with my normal, relatively ok life anyway!
Best,
TP
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I'll do everything I can to find a way to make it work.
I'm just thinking about a similar operation where they do some kind of scheduled passenger service between the island of Elba and the Italian mainland during the summer season in Let 410s. It is absolutely impossible that this operation can ever be profitable, but obviously they get some development subsidies from the EU or their local government. Maybe something similar is possible for your plan?
I'd prefer Hungarians.
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How can you have a CPL and not know what a charter or AOC is? These are the fundamentals of obtaining a CPL. Every CPL knows this. There is little difference between a PPL and CPL except to operate under an AOC on charter (or similar).
Obviously you don't have a CPL and with no disrespect, have no idea about aviation, I suggest you approach a consultant and get some advice from them. You will be in over your head within 2 weeks if you lay one cent down on this venture without consulting the right people.
So far, none of what you've suggested is at all possible under any circumstance. Either open the purse as suggested, or start scaling back significantly.
Av.
Obviously you don't have a CPL and with no disrespect, have no idea about aviation, I suggest you approach a consultant and get some advice from them. You will be in over your head within 2 weeks if you lay one cent down on this venture without consulting the right people.
So far, none of what you've suggested is at all possible under any circumstance. Either open the purse as suggested, or start scaling back significantly.
Av.
Firstly I’d like to introduce myself, I’m Leo, I have a PPL and I’m achieving my Aircraft Maintenance Engineer License and I’ve worked with maintenance and management of aircraft before.
All I have to say about your comment is that you’re being quiet rude with the comrade pilot asking about a leasing or rent of an aircraft.
I hope you’re not forgetting that even with the tougher that aviation can be, the field is suffering a shortage of personnel in aviation such as pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, among others. It’s quiet obvious that aviation has lost a lot of enthusiasts people because clearly there are certain characters (as you) that put to flight these people that’s willing to understand more aviation.
Finally I want to add that, eventually, the shortage of these people will affect aviation and economy in parallel and prices will rise up, and travel will be impossible.
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the field is suffering a shortage of personnel in aviation such as pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, among others.
All I have to say about your comment is that you’re being quiet rude
