A new corporate flight op Europe - your wisdom appreciated
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" ask the candidates if they would consider coming in at a quiet time on a day off to clean the aircraft"
I assume that you want the candidate to have some self respect and say "no, f#ck off, It's my day off. I play for pay", or something similar?
I assume that you want the candidate to have some self respect and say "no, f#ck off, It's my day off. I play for pay", or something similar?
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Really?
So along comes a company with no previous aircraft operation experience and decides to buy not one but two large cabin long range aircraft.
I do wish them all the best for their steep learning curve and all of the crew who are tempted to join them on their adventure into the very expensive unknown.
I am not usually disposed to such cynicism but this all sound too much.
I do wish them all the best for their steep learning curve and all of the crew who are tempted to join them on their adventure into the very expensive unknown.
I am not usually disposed to such cynicism but this all sound too much.
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Fanjet
It is a steep learning curve I agree, but companies who buy aircraft have to start somewhere so as to get going with that aircraft. Whether or not Pprune is the right place or not, the chap decided to ask for input from those who know and he will decide which road to go down based on that input. Don't knock someone trying to get advice.
I think for any company starting out new like this, a management company would be wise for say the first 12 months of operation so that the company can focus it's time and effort on it's own business rather than having to spend time also looking into all that comes with operating an aircraft.
If this chap plans to be based in the UK Midlands, I could point him in the direction of some very good management companies especially some who will not rip the @rse out of it.
It is a steep learning curve I agree, but companies who buy aircraft have to start somewhere so as to get going with that aircraft. Whether or not Pprune is the right place or not, the chap decided to ask for input from those who know and he will decide which road to go down based on that input. Don't knock someone trying to get advice.
I think for any company starting out new like this, a management company would be wise for say the first 12 months of operation so that the company can focus it's time and effort on it's own business rather than having to spend time also looking into all that comes with operating an aircraft.
If this chap plans to be based in the UK Midlands, I could point him in the direction of some very good management companies especially some who will not rip the @rse out of it.
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Tourist
Good to go on about self respect, I'm not suggesting we get a rota going for people to come in on their days off....if you read what I wrote its about gauging the reaction...at interview if your mouth says "yes" no problem but you're squirming in your seat and very obviously thinking "No F#ck off it's my day off"
Then I might be asking you to fly the next 7x along...
Not that I need you to clean airplanes on your day off, but I might reasonably need you to put yourself out on another matter in the future, lord knows what.
Frequently used interview tactic.
That said this is all too good to be bloody true, let's see if it happens before we all start moving to the midlands and booking 7x sims
Good to go on about self respect, I'm not suggesting we get a rota going for people to come in on their days off....if you read what I wrote its about gauging the reaction...at interview if your mouth says "yes" no problem but you're squirming in your seat and very obviously thinking "No F#ck off it's my day off"
Then I might be asking you to fly the next 7x along...
Not that I need you to clean airplanes on your day off, but I might reasonably need you to put yourself out on another matter in the future, lord knows what.
Frequently used interview tactic.
That said this is all too good to be bloody true, let's see if it happens before we all start moving to the midlands and booking 7x sims
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are you getting old..... 48 hours OFF in HK......or LA.... glf
Mutt
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My two cents: invest a good amount of time in putting together a small group of flexible and mature flight attendants (guess about 3 per a/c in your case) that can truly get along with the client, drivers AND eachother.
I've seen numerous operations suffer from cultural (linguistic) inbalance and /or sheer jalousy amongst (mainly young female) flight attendants.
I've seen numerous operations suffer from cultural (linguistic) inbalance and /or sheer jalousy amongst (mainly young female) flight attendants.
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G-Spot
I would suggest that someone who will say yes to working on a day off is desperate and I would wonder why.
If you want professional aircrew then you have to treat them like professionals.
If the question was "are you willing to be occasionally flexible if we need you to work a day off in exchange for a day or two in lieu sometime else?", then the answer is hell yes.
Why would you expect anybody to work beyond their contract for no recompense?
I would certainly not work for an employer who expected that sort of behaviour.
At interview I think that would be the point at which I say "thank you but no thanks."
If an employer is asking that sort of thing before a contract is signed, I can only imagine what sort of thing they will try to pull once they have you on board.
It's no wonder Ts&Cs are going down the pan!
I would suggest that someone who will say yes to working on a day off is desperate and I would wonder why.
If you want professional aircrew then you have to treat them like professionals.
If the question was "are you willing to be occasionally flexible if we need you to work a day off in exchange for a day or two in lieu sometime else?", then the answer is hell yes.
Why would you expect anybody to work beyond their contract for no recompense?
I would certainly not work for an employer who expected that sort of behaviour.
At interview I think that would be the point at which I say "thank you but no thanks."
If an employer is asking that sort of thing before a contract is signed, I can only imagine what sort of thing they will try to pull once they have you on board.
It's no wonder Ts&Cs are going down the pan!
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Yep. They don't even have an airplane and are arguing the toss about how to arrange the crew schedules. prune pilots sure are gonna help this guy spend his salary budget, and talk him into them managing the airplanes as well. I can see a $60 million catastrophe on the horizon.
prune pilots sure are gonna help this guy spend his salary budget, and talk him into them managing the airplanes as well. I can see a $60 million catastrophe on the horizon.
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We are in the final stages of authorising the set up of a corporate flight department (UK Midlands based) for our organisation, but before we finalise the plans I thought it best to get the input of the wealth of experience of the people on this site
Yep. They don't even have an airplane and are arguing the toss about how to arrange the crew schedules.
We have no way to know what kind of knowledge the TO already has, he might be even a fake. But if he is for real, I think his approach is a very very sensible one. I certainly would like to work for someone who listens to people with experience and is apparently not a 'know it all'...
Last edited by His dudeness; 3rd Jun 2012 at 22:17.
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Only Falcons?
Are the Falcons your only choice or are you evaluating other aircraft as well? The reason is that you also need to consider reliability and down-route servicing centres should the aircraft go tech. I'm not going to put one manufacturer above another, but you might want to ask people for an honest opinion of, for example, the 7X's despatch reliability as it's still a relatively "new" type on the long-range block.
Hope it all works out.
P.S. if you want a G450/550 driver, PM me.
Hope it all works out.
P.S. if you want a G450/550 driver, PM me.
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His dudeness:
Exactly right!
Aren't we getting a bit off topic here?
Trying to find the perfect airplane is impossible. It alway will be a compromise.
It's equally rocket science to employ the right people. Do you organize a huge assessment center 'event' or just invite a handful of reasonable looking individuals and then listen to your gut feeling?
And choosing the right management company (if at all) is yet another question...
We have no way to know what kind of knowledge the TO already has, he might be even a fake. But if he is for real, I think his approach is a very very sensible one. I certainly would like to work for someone who listens to people with experience and is apparently not a 'know it all'...
Aren't we getting a bit off topic here?
Trying to find the perfect airplane is impossible. It alway will be a compromise.
It's equally rocket science to employ the right people. Do you organize a huge assessment center 'event' or just invite a handful of reasonable looking individuals and then listen to your gut feeling?
And choosing the right management company (if at all) is yet another question...
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3 crew
2 Capts, 1 FO
Roster - 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off or 30 days on 15 days off.
4 crew
The cost difference for the additional crew member is only an increase of 8% over that for 3 crew. It gives significant added flexibility and vastly improved and more acceptable crew roster patterns. Less chance of pilot churn, high training and recruitment costs.
2 Capts, 2 FOs
35 days on, 31 days off or 16 days on, 14 days off.
Training in any of the scenarios can either be done during off time or planned down time. Flying rates, aircraft basing, owner demands, notice period and route structure will lead to the best crew ratio, roster pattern. Put the horse first.
As for aircraft the 900LX and 2000LX could be a better fit as there is much more commonality. The 900LX will probably be less prone than the 7X to "gremlins".
If you do give it a go, best of luck. There are good management companies out there and I agree with one of the posts which said you want the right crew on the aircraft, they will make the difference and make it work for the owner.
2 Capts, 1 FO
Roster - 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off or 30 days on 15 days off.
4 crew
The cost difference for the additional crew member is only an increase of 8% over that for 3 crew. It gives significant added flexibility and vastly improved and more acceptable crew roster patterns. Less chance of pilot churn, high training and recruitment costs.
2 Capts, 2 FOs
35 days on, 31 days off or 16 days on, 14 days off.
Training in any of the scenarios can either be done during off time or planned down time. Flying rates, aircraft basing, owner demands, notice period and route structure will lead to the best crew ratio, roster pattern. Put the horse first.
As for aircraft the 900LX and 2000LX could be a better fit as there is much more commonality. The 900LX will probably be less prone than the 7X to "gremlins".
If you do give it a go, best of luck. There are good management companies out there and I agree with one of the posts which said you want the right crew on the aircraft, they will make the difference and make it work for the owner.
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Yep. They don't even have an airplane and are arguing the toss about how to arrange the crew schedules.
Last edited by Dawdler; 7th Jun 2012 at 15:21. Reason: spelling error slipped through
