Private Operators and Ops1
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Hear hear Dudeness....
The ignorance of some people makes me want to run a warm bath and listen to Celine Dion with a sharp knife.
To the jet jockey flying for a AOC that does not have to put pen to paper and discuss budgetary concerns listen up.
To make a aircraft cost effective, And profitable you need to fly a sssssh!t load of hours, the more you fly the most cost effective it becomes, obviously for a multitude of reasons, which I can discuss if this stupid iPad was not so hard on the fingers.
Now for my boss the idea of arrogant paying clients that don't give a hoot about whose aircraft they flying and how they treat it, and let's be honest pasengers can really stuff an interior up, he did not like the idea of sitting in some ones elses sweat stain. Now for a guy who pays all this money to get away from airlines, and netjets this is his prerogative.
To fly for a one owner operation is to me been an absolute eye owner, I have control and decision of the operation, the owner trusts me impeccably and judgement. I have not to argue with some snot nose 23 year old management about getting to and from a place. If I feel not comfortable it does not happen, on the same side we have a efficient and happy coexistence.
Now me, personally think EASA should make all operations private and follow a brilliant safety record
To bring it back to the topic, EASA is on a power trip and all it does is drive the aviation further away from regulations. I believe that every operation does and illegal flight with the amount of regulation in place, and this is just to cover them. All they do is stand back and say we are protecting the public and they broke the law, no matter how small.
Instead of working and cooperating with us they cause us to go against them, but this is the socialist state we live with.
The management and AOC companies are lobbying hard, as they are seeing the last bit of pie stubbornly refusing to be eaten.
Have you ever wondered why in all this fancy aviation magazines at FBO's don't feature the hard working people getting the job done, just snot nose 20 and 30 somethings pitching to rich technocrats how they screw the little guys.
Am I bitter, yes I am.....
The ignorance of some people makes me want to run a warm bath and listen to Celine Dion with a sharp knife.
To the jet jockey flying for a AOC that does not have to put pen to paper and discuss budgetary concerns listen up.
To make a aircraft cost effective, And profitable you need to fly a sssssh!t load of hours, the more you fly the most cost effective it becomes, obviously for a multitude of reasons, which I can discuss if this stupid iPad was not so hard on the fingers.
Now for my boss the idea of arrogant paying clients that don't give a hoot about whose aircraft they flying and how they treat it, and let's be honest pasengers can really stuff an interior up, he did not like the idea of sitting in some ones elses sweat stain. Now for a guy who pays all this money to get away from airlines, and netjets this is his prerogative.
To fly for a one owner operation is to me been an absolute eye owner, I have control and decision of the operation, the owner trusts me impeccably and judgement. I have not to argue with some snot nose 23 year old management about getting to and from a place. If I feel not comfortable it does not happen, on the same side we have a efficient and happy coexistence.
Now me, personally think EASA should make all operations private and follow a brilliant safety record
To bring it back to the topic, EASA is on a power trip and all it does is drive the aviation further away from regulations. I believe that every operation does and illegal flight with the amount of regulation in place, and this is just to cover them. All they do is stand back and say we are protecting the public and they broke the law, no matter how small.
Instead of working and cooperating with us they cause us to go against them, but this is the socialist state we live with.
The management and AOC companies are lobbying hard, as they are seeing the last bit of pie stubbornly refusing to be eaten.
Have you ever wondered why in all this fancy aviation magazines at FBO's don't feature the hard working people getting the job done, just snot nose 20 and 30 somethings pitching to rich technocrats how they screw the little guys.
Am I bitter, yes I am.....
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By the way, to the private operators out there, I am seeking responses to an idea I pitched earlier on. I would like see if it would be to establish a body that will cover us regulation wise and under a sort of umbrella.
These are thoughts and would like positive PM's by those that are willing to see if it would be cost effective.
Cheers
These are thoughts and would like positive PM's by those that are willing to see if it would be cost effective.
Cheers
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Questions :
How many Operators are landing at LCY with a 1,67 safety margin ?
And I'm not even thinking about a wet rwy..
How many long haule bizjets are equiped with a decent crew rest room ?
just to cover the third Crew and prevent him to go and snooze with Mr and Ms Boss.
Of course, I was thinking about AOCed ones as we, as privates, are fool enough to try n kill our Pax anytime
to Mattman
"I am seeking responses to an idea I pitched earlier on. I would like see if it would be to establish a body that will cover us regulation wise and under a sort of umbrella."
That was a kind of my initial idea, opening that thread, but I'm afraid it will take to long before Apr 2012.
It takes about a year to write and check agreements with Authorities.
I'd prefer relying upon big wigs like Manufacturers or airport authorities to call EASA to settle down. (even while writing books
)
Once again, I'm just a private :o)
How many Operators are landing at LCY with a 1,67 safety margin ?
And I'm not even thinking about a wet rwy..
How many long haule bizjets are equiped with a decent crew rest room ?
just to cover the third Crew and prevent him to go and snooze with Mr and Ms Boss.
Of course, I was thinking about AOCed ones as we, as privates, are fool enough to try n kill our Pax anytime
to Mattman
"I am seeking responses to an idea I pitched earlier on. I would like see if it would be to establish a body that will cover us regulation wise and under a sort of umbrella."
That was a kind of my initial idea, opening that thread, but I'm afraid it will take to long before Apr 2012.
It takes about a year to write and check agreements with Authorities.
I'd prefer relying upon big wigs like Manufacturers or airport authorities to call EASA to settle down. (even while writing books
)Once again, I'm just a private :o)
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Alfred
Ask his Dudeness I m sure his answer will enlight us by his brightness of Knowledges of aviation and demonstrate one more time who is stupid ! but I am afraid he may explain he is the kind of guy who will maintain that flying 16 h of duty with 2 pilots without proper rest sleep 6h at destination and back next day anoth 16 h is ok in Privat in the interest of the flexibility required by the boss, sure he may shine at the local Aeroclub .
Ask his Dudeness I m sure his answer will enlight us by his brightness of Knowledges of aviation and demonstrate one more time who is stupid ! but I am afraid he may explain he is the kind of guy who will maintain that flying 16 h of duty with 2 pilots without proper rest sleep 6h at destination and back next day anoth 16 h is ok in Privat in the interest of the flexibility required by the boss, sure he may shine at the local Aeroclub .
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Gentlemen,
If I were looking for arguments, I would have put that thread on Radiococo or another French one
This 13 hour duty length is one of the several issues to face for our Bosses.
Some issues are concerning small airports who have invested big bucks in their facilities and will hear that it's not enough because some dudes in offices are not confident with the level of safety demonstrated these past 25 years ..?
Some others will hit manufacturers because they haven't design enough rest room in their crew compartment...($$$)
Next step they'll realize that everything that goes up will have to go down and eventually, plane flying on railtracks could be safer than those relying upon their wings to fly.
In 3,5 years of AOCed I saw more stupid reactions from pilots flying in accordance with FDM thresholds than in 20 year of "unregulated" ops. That is pretty sad.
So, thank you for all your comments Chaps and, by the way, excuse my English
If I were looking for arguments, I would have put that thread on Radiococo or another French one
This 13 hour duty length is one of the several issues to face for our Bosses.
Some issues are concerning small airports who have invested big bucks in their facilities and will hear that it's not enough because some dudes in offices are not confident with the level of safety demonstrated these past 25 years ..?
Some others will hit manufacturers because they haven't design enough rest room in their crew compartment...($$$)
Next step they'll realize that everything that goes up will have to go down and eventually, plane flying on railtracks could be safer than those relying upon their wings to fly.
In 3,5 years of AOCed I saw more stupid reactions from pilots flying in accordance with FDM thresholds than in 20 year of "unregulated" ops. That is pretty sad.
So, thank you for all your comments Chaps and, by the way, excuse my English
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but I am afraid he may explain he is the kind of guy who will maintain that flying 16 h of duty with 2 pilots without proper rest sleep 6h at destination and back next day anoth 16 h is ok in Privat in the interest of the flexibility required by the boss
but in my country if you fly as a employed pilot, you got to obey FDR. And we do.
falconbis, I apologize for my first sentence, wasn´t supposed to be too harsh, but actually is. Sorry for that.
Apart from that, I still maintain that we don´t need further regulation. No one that does not play by the rules will follow them just because they are more stringend or renamed. And your argument about the costs is simply...well see mattmans reply, he puts it better than I do.
One can operate private and do it safely in line with the regulations in place NOW. We do, we keep a MEL,we 'empty' the HIL ASAP, we don´t use up tyres to very last bit, we obey FDT, we check rwy performance, we don´t go overweight, we fly shorter legs than most charter operator do with the same type in order to have healthy fuel reserves, our crew get something to eat and drink while flying. You probably would wonder how often we say "no" for safety reasons (that includes FDTs)
Last edited by His dudeness; 7th Feb 2011 at 11:16.
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Responsibilities
@ You Dudeness, +1.
But it seems that it's not the evaluable as long as it's not written in books.
They just want it written, with a name at the bottom, somebody else they could hammer live if you do not comply.
But it seems that it's not the evaluable as long as it's not written in books.
They just want it written, with a name at the bottom, somebody else they could hammer live if you do not comply.
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The bottom line guys is this. Common sense went out the window years ago. The obituary has already been written.
The EU bill of human rights is total nonsense to any sane individual. Health and safety has been mad for some years now. The law is an ass, so what hope have any of us really got by being allowed to operate with common sense in mind.
As stupidity only gets worse, soon we will all need and hour extra to prepare the paperwork, to fly a sector, on top of the time it takes to prepare for the safe execution of a flight. This is not conducive to safety. That extra time would be better spent having the crew be involved in pref light preparation on a practical level. Not doing senseless paperwork!! Paperwork will not stop an aircraft crashing. Far from it. I guess it is OK to crash as long as the paperwork is OK and uptodate? Not in my
book it ain't!
Anyone old enough to still remember K.I.S.S? Complicate things too much and the average human being can get confused and divert important energies and focuses in the wrong direction.
The EU bill of human rights is total nonsense to any sane individual. Health and safety has been mad for some years now. The law is an ass, so what hope have any of us really got by being allowed to operate with common sense in mind.
As stupidity only gets worse, soon we will all need and hour extra to prepare the paperwork, to fly a sector, on top of the time it takes to prepare for the safe execution of a flight. This is not conducive to safety. That extra time would be better spent having the crew be involved in pref light preparation on a practical level. Not doing senseless paperwork!! Paperwork will not stop an aircraft crashing. Far from it. I guess it is OK to crash as long as the paperwork is OK and uptodate? Not in my
book it ain't!Anyone old enough to still remember K.I.S.S? Complicate things too much and the average human being can get confused and divert important energies and focuses in the wrong direction.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 27th Feb 2011 at 03:37.
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That reminds me first flight in AOCed airline when by 25 miles from airport, I told the Capt "runway in sight".
He stared at me surprised as it wasn't a correct call at such a range and ask me if I wanted to go visual (a bit upset)
This nice guy wanted to go through the whole hog : loc alive, switch on ILS frq, glide alive and blabla.
I just remind him as a debrief that, as far as I was concern, the goal of a flight was to find the correct airport. But obviously that was not safe at all, as he could not put the wheels on the rwy w/o all this process
Once again, we are not the best pilots on Earth, we are just pilots and some believes that if they stick to the books, they'll become The best pilot on Earth...
It's pancake time now, enjoy your Sunday, Gentlemen.
He stared at me surprised as it wasn't a correct call at such a range and ask me if I wanted to go visual (a bit upset)
This nice guy wanted to go through the whole hog : loc alive, switch on ILS frq, glide alive and blabla.
I just remind him as a debrief that, as far as I was concern, the goal of a flight was to find the correct airport. But obviously that was not safe at all, as he could not put the wheels on the rwy w/o all this process
Once again, we are not the best pilots on Earth, we are just pilots and some believes that if they stick to the books, they'll become The best pilot on Earth...
It's pancake time now, enjoy your Sunday, Gentlemen.
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In the US, part 91, No.
Sorry if you have to go through that crap to fly a plane. Sounds like your getting jerked around and they are stifling private aviation in your country.
Sorry if you have to go through that crap to fly a plane. Sounds like your getting jerked around and they are stifling private aviation in your country.
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Met an LBA guy the day before yesterday and in our brief discussion he said nothing is ready yet, apparently EASA drowns in 'buts' (not only for the ops part, the FTL thing alone had sumthin like 50.000 replies he said.
He said they think to get it out by september, with April 1st 2012 as date of introduction possibly with a further 6 months leeway...
He said about EASA, and I quote: "headless chicken, running around and not knowing what they do".
He also said that we wonders about the people from various interest groups such as AOPA, Pilot assosiations, EBAA etcetc. that apparently either don´t show up or fail to make an impact in the generating of the rules....
He said they think to get it out by september, with April 1st 2012 as date of introduction possibly with a further 6 months leeway...
He said about EASA, and I quote: "headless chicken, running around and not knowing what they do".
He also said that we wonders about the people from various interest groups such as AOPA, Pilot assosiations, EBAA etcetc. that apparently either don´t show up or fail to make an impact in the generating of the rules....
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The Bookwritter we met few weeks ago settled down a lil as he, and probably EASA as well, realized that :
-Dassault will have to make more rooms for Crews in the cabin of its lovely
7X (so much for the Pax)
-Cessna won't probably sell anymore Mustang to privates ( we don't even talk about Eclipse)
-Swiss FOCA or French DGAC will probably have to close runways like LSGC, LFTZ or some other unkown tricky ones.
In a nutshell, it turns now to big money issues, why not sitting on the fence and contemplate lobbyists a work ?
-Dassault will have to make more rooms for Crews in the cabin of its lovely
7X (so much for the Pax)
-Cessna won't probably sell anymore Mustang to privates ( we don't even talk about Eclipse)
-Swiss FOCA or French DGAC will probably have to close runways like LSGC, LFTZ or some other unkown tricky ones.
In a nutshell, it turns now to big money issues, why not sitting on the fence and contemplate lobbyists a work ?
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From what I hear, Yogi, this has all been delayed. Not sure by how much, but it seems unlikely to be implemented in April.
You guys blaming the AOC operators for supposed lobbying should perhaps look to why they lobby. When private owners let their friends (or indeed others) hire the aircraft it does of course take business away from legitimate operators. It also harms the reputation of GA: I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in the UK in the last few years there have been a number of accidents involving either suspect or definitely illegal charters.
The illegal charter market seems to be far larger than I would ever have imagined before I worked in GA. I have caught one organisation out because I bumped into a passenger I knew getting out of an aircraft I knew. I have seen illegal charters advertised more than once. There are a lot of charters around that are seriously suspect.
Now I am far from convinced that this legislation is a good route, but I can see why the legitimate operators might support it. Maybe a little lobbying from the large number of perfectly honourable private/corporate operators, acknowledging this problem, could have helped steer a more reasonable course.
As for private operations being as safe as AOC, everyone must recognise that there is a lot of variability in private operations. I flew on a private operation for a short time that was only safe because of the public-transport experience of the crew, who recognised that the structure of the organisation did not come close to an AOC and worked hard to make sure professional standards were kept. There has been significant variability in AOC operations, but even over my career there has been a huge improvement at the bottom.
You guys blaming the AOC operators for supposed lobbying should perhaps look to why they lobby. When private owners let their friends (or indeed others) hire the aircraft it does of course take business away from legitimate operators. It also harms the reputation of GA: I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in the UK in the last few years there have been a number of accidents involving either suspect or definitely illegal charters.
The illegal charter market seems to be far larger than I would ever have imagined before I worked in GA. I have caught one organisation out because I bumped into a passenger I knew getting out of an aircraft I knew. I have seen illegal charters advertised more than once. There are a lot of charters around that are seriously suspect.
Now I am far from convinced that this legislation is a good route, but I can see why the legitimate operators might support it. Maybe a little lobbying from the large number of perfectly honourable private/corporate operators, acknowledging this problem, could have helped steer a more reasonable course.
As for private operations being as safe as AOC, everyone must recognise that there is a lot of variability in private operations. I flew on a private operation for a short time that was only safe because of the public-transport experience of the crew, who recognised that the structure of the organisation did not come close to an AOC and worked hard to make sure professional standards were kept. There has been significant variability in AOC operations, but even over my career there has been a huge improvement at the bottom.
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Rules and laws have always been broken by some. Making another (stupid) law won't change that.
The whole aviation scene in Europe needs a total overhaul and a large dose of common sense. It won't happen while the shop (EASA) is being run by idots and politicians who wouldn't know a runway from a parking lot if they were dropped in the middle of it.
People with money and business will begin to move away from Europe as life gets more difficult.
The whole aviation scene in Europe needs a total overhaul and a large dose of common sense. It won't happen while the shop (EASA) is being run by idots and politicians who wouldn't know a runway from a parking lot if they were dropped in the middle of it.
People with money and business will begin to move away from Europe as life gets more difficult.
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Making another (stupid) law won't change that
The difference in cost between a private operation and paying an operator to manage the aircraft will be much reduced. The unfortunate thing is simply that they made this so just by increasing costs to private operators, and did not even consider reducing costs to AOC holders.
Of course any professional management company, especially if it has an AOC and executives have signed Form 4, is far less likely to sell illegal charters. The ability of the Authority to shut down an operation, or at least demand serious remedies, is far more a deterrent than the £250 fine one company my previous employer managed to prove to be flying illegally was given.
So an owner who wants to charter the aircraft out might as well put it on an AOC, and charter it legally. At the very least the premium for doing so is reduced, and therefore so is the incentive for chartering illegally.
There could have been other remedies that would have been far better for reducing illegal charters. However they would need co-operation of private and corporate operators who never took this problem seriously.
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You guys blaming the AOC operators for supposed lobbying should perhaps look to why they lobby.
Now its easy to make the claim that the bad, bad A/C owners sell illegal charters. Who or how many have been proven to do so? A few rotten apples maybe....
We never have chartered illegally out nor will we ever do.
So we get punished for alleged sins of a few others. BTW, the draft I have read will do nothing to prevent illegal charters. The EASA and the German authority consider NetJets owner operation a private one, the NetJets card operation as a commercial one. How can that be? Does NJ not make profits from their shareholders?
The whole system proposed - for commercial and noncomm operators is bollocks IMO. SMS? Won´t change a thing. Fatigue risk management?
BTW, deadline for NCCs (the non comm complex airplanes) is the 8th of April 2014,thats what I have heard from the LBA yesterday.
The new reg is EXPECTED to be translated in Autumn this year...
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It ain't just a few rotten apples. I am sure it isn't a majority either, but it is pretty common. As I said, I know of four definite illegal charters, by three different companies, spotted by me or colleagues of mine just by pure chance - one of them was on TV! That is the known ones, at least three of which were part of subsequent prosecutions. Suspected ones far outnumber them. Then there are the accidents that either were illegal charters (Biggin Hill for example) or certainly looked like it (obviously for legal reasons I can't name any, but just look through accident reports in GA for the last 10 years or so, and look for the suspicious circumstances).
I know at least three people who have been involved in illegal charters in the past, and I don't know many people with significant experience in non-AOC flying. I have not spent much time at all in flashy handling agents with other crews coming in and out, simply because of where and when I have typically flown, so I don't see that many passenger charters in and out, but I have still seen plenty of pretty suspect flights.
Companies have invested large amounts of time and money in AOCs. A proper operation has a lot of overhead in office staff, expensive people due to the experience requirements. That does pay off in safety, even I can see it at the coal face. They don't want your business at all, unless you are involved in illegal charters or unless you want to pay for management. Of course the latter will be easier to sell now, but did you guys in private GA put out any better solution to what is, after all, a problem that affects us all, at least in image. They want to sit alongside you, and do their business without being undercut by people breaking the law. The size of the fleets is up to them and the market will determine which profit. They should not have to compete with illegal operators.
NetJets doesn't make a profit at all. Sharing is as old as aviation, and legally it would be all but impossible to define flying an owner, shared or otherwise, as CAT.
It will not, of course, stop illegal charters directly. However it removes a large part of the incentive. I explained in detail why I think it will help.
I never said you should be punished at all.
I know at least three people who have been involved in illegal charters in the past, and I don't know many people with significant experience in non-AOC flying. I have not spent much time at all in flashy handling agents with other crews coming in and out, simply because of where and when I have typically flown, so I don't see that many passenger charters in and out, but I have still seen plenty of pretty suspect flights.
Companies have invested large amounts of time and money in AOCs. A proper operation has a lot of overhead in office staff, expensive people due to the experience requirements. That does pay off in safety, even I can see it at the coal face. They don't want your business at all, unless you are involved in illegal charters or unless you want to pay for management. Of course the latter will be easier to sell now, but did you guys in private GA put out any better solution to what is, after all, a problem that affects us all, at least in image. They want to sit alongside you, and do their business without being undercut by people breaking the law. The size of the fleets is up to them and the market will determine which profit. They should not have to compete with illegal operators.
NetJets doesn't make a profit at all. Sharing is as old as aviation, and legally it would be all but impossible to define flying an owner, shared or otherwise, as CAT.
It will not, of course, stop illegal charters directly. However it removes a large part of the incentive. I explained in detail why I think it will help.
I never said you should be punished at all.