Moving from regional airline to corporate - advice please
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Moving from regional airline to corporate - advice please
I'm a 4000hr turboprop captain looking to move into business aviation. No jet time yet, but 3500hrs multi engine, 3000hrs multi crew and 2500hrs PIC. Has anyone else followed a similar route?
All advice appreciated.
Thanks!
Al
All advice appreciated.
Thanks!
Al
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It's literally all about who you know.
With the right folks at hand you'll end up in a G550, with none you may not even get a shot at a CJ1.
Hardly any jobs are advertised as most openings are filled with someone known by current crew, office staff, etc.
With the right folks at hand you'll end up in a G550, with none you may not even get a shot at a CJ1.
Hardly any jobs are advertised as most openings are filled with someone known by current crew, office staff, etc.
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I'd stay where you are! You get virtually no stability or security in corporate. That said, when things are good it truly is a blast! 
The sector is coming out of recession but always lags behind the airlines. Remember one of the first things to go in hard times is the private jet - it's happened twice to me in 18 months and now I am on my todd trying to get something sorted before I go mad!
Think carefully!
The sector is coming out of recession but always lags behind the airlines. Remember one of the first things to go in hard times is the private jet - it's happened twice to me in 18 months and now I am on my todd trying to get something sorted before I go mad!Think carefully!
Agree with CL - the flying is great, but job security and ts and cs are dreadful.
You are at the mercy of the whims of the aircraft owner - if he decides to sell, you lose your job instantly (one friend was informed by SMS).
You are at the mercy of the whims of the aircraft owner - if he decides to sell, you lose your job instantly (one friend was informed by SMS).
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Not all Corporate Jobs lack a stable rosta. I have an extremely stable one. I fly company staff on regular routes, and the owners to more glamorous places. I do about 400 hours per year and love my job. There has been no mention of any of our aircraft going as they are deemed vital to the business, in fact we're looking at upgrading as we're so busy.
It is about who you know though, a lot of the staff movements at our base amongst the corporate guys seems to be "mates of mates". Start networking
It is about who you know though, a lot of the staff movements at our base amongst the corporate guys seems to be "mates of mates". Start networking
Concur 100% with previous posts. Corporate is very varied, depends on who you end up flying for with respect to rosters, routes, pay....everything. Your face will need to fit and you will need to be very flexible (loading pax bags if required), often its not like the airlines where you just turn up, get the PLOG, MET etc and off you go. Also coming off a TP you will need to start thinking a bit faster as well, you'll be going at 400 kts not 300.
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PJ
I don't think speed will catch him out especially if he flies a Dash 8 or Dornier 328, older TPs maybe but not the current stuff. The other stuff you mention might catch him out though!
I don't think speed will catch him out especially if he flies a Dash 8 or Dornier 328, older TPs maybe but not the current stuff. The other stuff you mention might catch him out though!
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I file "loading bags/pax" under "good parts of the job". There is something about being part of the whole "life cycle" of a trip that for me makes it even more satisfying. That would also include stuff like arranging catering, tidying up the aircraft afterwards etc. I take a lot of pride in making sure the aircraft is neat and tidy and ready for the next trip. This may not be everyones idea of a "good job", but if it is then corporate flying may be for you. You'll also need to be great with people, at all times of the day, but that in itself can be rewarding, we still get the odd tap on the shoulder during the cruise from a passenger asking which city they can see out of the window etc.
The other corporate guys in our hangar seem to have a good time aswell, having said that I do know how fortunate I am to have this job, not a day goes by where I don't appreciate the position I am in.
PS deffo not gonna be retiring soon, I'm still in the right seat!
PPS Sadly there are no jobs going here at present for any of the operators at my base, it's been pretty static for a while.
The other corporate guys in our hangar seem to have a good time aswell, having said that I do know how fortunate I am to have this job, not a day goes by where I don't appreciate the position I am in.
PS deffo not gonna be retiring soon, I'm still in the right seat!
PPS Sadly there are no jobs going here at present for any of the operators at my base, it's been pretty static for a while.
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I am ex airline gone corporate and I've never looked back.
Since I left I've had several "discussions" with ex colleagues and I often find that they have no idea how corporate aviation works today. A lot of people come up with the most ridiculous things like "So you are sitting around the airport the whole day waiting for your passenger?", "Are you just sitting in the passenger terminal waiting then or?", "You don't have proper days off right, always stby?", "Who's paying for the hotel when you are on duty?"
Personally I know a lot of bizjet pilots, non of them are sitting around airports, except when the passengers are late to the aircraft, which of course can and will happen. Having said that, I only do 3-5 flights per month so who cares?! All bizjet pilots I know have fixed rosters. 80% of them make more money than any airline pilot I know. 100% of them have more time off per year than any airline pilot I know.
".....you will need to be very flexible (loading bags if required)..." Haha! If that's being "very flexible" you've never seen flexible.
Loading bags is a way of getting some exercise. Most corporate aircraft have relatively small holds, even Falcon/Gulfstream/GLEX size aircraft, and most of the time you'll find yourself having perhaps 5-6 large bags and some shopping bags, whats the big deal?! You are two pilots, always get a hand from the handling guys, and providing you take good care of your cc she will help out as well. 
As far as stability goes, I say its same s@#t different name, unless you are with the big ones that are very stable, i.e. BA, easyJet, Air
Air France/KLM and a few others. Most other airlines make people redundant from time to time so this is not really an argument. If you are fed up with what you do and get an offer to fly corporate - Go for it.
Good luck!
CP
Since I left I've had several "discussions" with ex colleagues and I often find that they have no idea how corporate aviation works today. A lot of people come up with the most ridiculous things like "So you are sitting around the airport the whole day waiting for your passenger?", "Are you just sitting in the passenger terminal waiting then or?", "You don't have proper days off right, always stby?", "Who's paying for the hotel when you are on duty?"
Personally I know a lot of bizjet pilots, non of them are sitting around airports, except when the passengers are late to the aircraft, which of course can and will happen. Having said that, I only do 3-5 flights per month so who cares?! All bizjet pilots I know have fixed rosters. 80% of them make more money than any airline pilot I know. 100% of them have more time off per year than any airline pilot I know.
".....you will need to be very flexible (loading bags if required)..." Haha! If that's being "very flexible" you've never seen flexible.
Loading bags is a way of getting some exercise. Most corporate aircraft have relatively small holds, even Falcon/Gulfstream/GLEX size aircraft, and most of the time you'll find yourself having perhaps 5-6 large bags and some shopping bags, whats the big deal?! You are two pilots, always get a hand from the handling guys, and providing you take good care of your cc she will help out as well. As far as stability goes, I say its same s@#t different name, unless you are with the big ones that are very stable, i.e. BA, easyJet, Air
Air France/KLM and a few others. Most other airlines make people redundant from time to time so this is not really an argument. If you are fed up with what you do and get an offer to fly corporate - Go for it.
Good luck!
CP
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ATP_Al
My guess is you are here because you are unable to progress from your turboprop airline to a jet airline! Please correct me if I am wrong. In days gone by, it was normal to move from left seat turboprop to right seat 737/A320. Now with the advent of CTC and OAA cadet schemes, people like you are being squeezed out of the equation. That is a shame as I know quite a few guys similar to you with lots of experience. Unless things change with the airlines your options are threefold.
1. Stay put in the hope that jet airlines will once again appreciate your experience. How long you wait is anyone's guess!?
2. Try your hand at CTC/OAA but that means becoming a poorly paid cadet which is probably unpalatable.
3. Try your hand at corporate aviation where your experience may well be appreciated and welcomed.
All the small companies I have worked for have had bad experiences with ex-airline types. However, that is probably more to do with the culture than anything else which still harks back to the air taxi mentality where notwithstanding being given a notional roster, you are effectively on standby all the time unless you block a day off. I reckon with the larger outfits like TAG, Execujet and Netjets the story is probably different. They are more akin to corporate airlines with good meaningful rosters and plenty of support staff. If you market yourself well, you could be on a winner there!
I would maintain that on balance the top corporate jobs are probably better than the top airline jobs. However this would be on the longhaul fleets of Falcons, Gulfstreams, Globals, BBJs and ACJs. These jobs are often not advertised properly and frequently filled by people networking and befriending people with influence. I know at least one guy who earns nearly Ł200k per year and has a fantastic quality of life!
That said, the average airline job will offer more security and stability than the average corporate job! I don't think anyone here will disagree with me on that one!
Do your homework, think carefully and then whatever you decide, good luck!
My guess is you are here because you are unable to progress from your turboprop airline to a jet airline! Please correct me if I am wrong. In days gone by, it was normal to move from left seat turboprop to right seat 737/A320. Now with the advent of CTC and OAA cadet schemes, people like you are being squeezed out of the equation. That is a shame as I know quite a few guys similar to you with lots of experience. Unless things change with the airlines your options are threefold.
1. Stay put in the hope that jet airlines will once again appreciate your experience. How long you wait is anyone's guess!?
2. Try your hand at CTC/OAA but that means becoming a poorly paid cadet which is probably unpalatable.
3. Try your hand at corporate aviation where your experience may well be appreciated and welcomed.
All the small companies I have worked for have had bad experiences with ex-airline types. However, that is probably more to do with the culture than anything else which still harks back to the air taxi mentality where notwithstanding being given a notional roster, you are effectively on standby all the time unless you block a day off. I reckon with the larger outfits like TAG, Execujet and Netjets the story is probably different. They are more akin to corporate airlines with good meaningful rosters and plenty of support staff. If you market yourself well, you could be on a winner there!
I would maintain that on balance the top corporate jobs are probably better than the top airline jobs. However this would be on the longhaul fleets of Falcons, Gulfstreams, Globals, BBJs and ACJs. These jobs are often not advertised properly and frequently filled by people networking and befriending people with influence. I know at least one guy who earns nearly Ł200k per year and has a fantastic quality of life!
That said, the average airline job will offer more security and stability than the average corporate job! I don't think anyone here will disagree with me on that one!
Do your homework, think carefully and then whatever you decide, good luck!
Captainprop, i used the "loading bags" line as an example of just one of the myriad of varied tasks we do, which as you have stated, most airline pilots have no idea about and might come as a bit of a surprise or even shock to them. I fly a Hawker anyway so theres never a lot of baggage for obvious reasons haha! I wanted to stress to the enquirer that there is much less of a proforma for the job and things vary enormously between different operations as you well know so he should be aware of what any potential employer requires.
The one common factor is that we all need to "muck in" as and when required, there is no job demarcation as such. Any would be corporate pilot should be prepared (and happy) to do the bags, clean the cabin if need be, fit the pitot covers et al in sub zero temps etc etc etc... I worked for BA many years ago albeit in a non flying role and tbh i hated the whole mentality. You're a very small cog in the machine and my manager at the time actually said to me one day " you're paid to do & not to think".....
The one common factor is that we all need to "muck in" as and when required, there is no job demarcation as such. Any would be corporate pilot should be prepared (and happy) to do the bags, clean the cabin if need be, fit the pitot covers et al in sub zero temps etc etc etc... I worked for BA many years ago albeit in a non flying role and tbh i hated the whole mentality. You're a very small cog in the machine and my manager at the time actually said to me one day " you're paid to do & not to think".....
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ATP Al,
youŽll find almost as much different conditions as flight departments.
The variety is very wide. (as private jet already pointed out)
Our 'flight department' consist of 2 dudes and 1 airplane. We do everything.
That includes:
- do the schedule/interact with the various secretaries (bout 30% of my job, where/how/when to fly)
- do the flight planning
- buy/order catering
- refuel
- pull 'er out of the hangar
- clean the airplane
- order and supervise mx
- check all the bills (another 30%)
- get permits
- order handling
- organize refresher training/all required courses
- last but least: fly the jet...
I forgot probably 15 other little things. Other guys that fly for similar sized companies do just the flying. There is a back office for the rest.
I love the variety in my current position. (Sometimes though I also hate it.)
youŽll find almost as much different conditions as flight departments.
The variety is very wide. (as private jet already pointed out)
Our 'flight department' consist of 2 dudes and 1 airplane. We do everything.
That includes:
- do the schedule/interact with the various secretaries (bout 30% of my job, where/how/when to fly)
- do the flight planning
- buy/order catering
- refuel
- pull 'er out of the hangar
- clean the airplane
- order and supervise mx
- check all the bills (another 30%)
- get permits
- order handling
- organize refresher training/all required courses
- last but least: fly the jet...
I forgot probably 15 other little things. Other guys that fly for similar sized companies do just the flying. There is a back office for the rest.
I love the variety in my current position. (Sometimes though I also hate it.)
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Crosswind limits,
Close but no cigar! I've thought about the big airline route, and in these tough times you have to apply to everyone and anyone that's recruiting, but my heart's not really in it. Challenging airports, a variety of destinations, being able to think on your feet and use your imagination to solve problems are what I love most about flying, and I'm sure I could put these skills to better use in GA. I've done air taxi, parachute dropping, glider towing etc so I'm well used to doing whatever is required to keep the operation going. Come to think of it, I find myself cleaning the cabin and taking off intake blanks, pitot covers etc quite often in my current job!
Thanks,
Al
Close but no cigar! I've thought about the big airline route, and in these tough times you have to apply to everyone and anyone that's recruiting, but my heart's not really in it. Challenging airports, a variety of destinations, being able to think on your feet and use your imagination to solve problems are what I love most about flying, and I'm sure I could put these skills to better use in GA. I've done air taxi, parachute dropping, glider towing etc so I'm well used to doing whatever is required to keep the operation going. Come to think of it, I find myself cleaning the cabin and taking off intake blanks, pitot covers etc quite often in my current job!
Thanks,
Al
Last edited by ATP_Al; 18th Nov 2010 at 16:55.
L'enfant Terrible
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I have to say I agree with ATP_Al and have a similar career outlook.
The hands on side is fairly similar to the way of doing things in my last job (African relief agency flying with a bit of VIP) and after 3 years with a UK Q400 operator, I'm treated more like semi-skilled labour than a dedicated professional. The aspects of corporate flying, other than actually handling the aeroplane, are quite attractive.
The hands on side is fairly similar to the way of doing things in my last job (African relief agency flying with a bit of VIP) and after 3 years with a UK Q400 operator, I'm treated more like semi-skilled labour than a dedicated professional. The aspects of corporate flying, other than actually handling the aeroplane, are quite attractive.
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Unstable job environment? I've been a corporate pilot 20+ years. 3 jobs. Flying the Global Express now. Depends who/what you know for sure. I laugh at these guys thinking the can easily "step down" to corporate.
It IS who you know but don't listen to these guys saying corporate is a bad idea. Most likely they are out of work airline pilots thinking they could parlay into corporate. Clearly they can not.
In my experience airline and military pilots have trouble making the transition to corporate.
Corporate jobs are awesome if you have the right attitude and yes, the right connections.
-26point2
It IS who you know but don't listen to these guys saying corporate is a bad idea. Most likely they are out of work airline pilots thinking they could parlay into corporate. Clearly they can not.
In my experience airline and military pilots have trouble making the transition to corporate.
Corporate jobs are awesome if you have the right attitude and yes, the right connections.
-26point2
