How many of you do LPC/recurrent in sim?
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How many of you do LPC/recurrent in sim?
I think it is the way to go to enhance safety and increase crew competentcy. The question as always is cost, although I know of at least one big UK operator putting their crews into the sim once a year now (ie. LPC). I think for corporate a yearly sim is fine (as opposed to 6 monthly) and then the OPC in the aircraft after 6 months.
I haven't been in the sim since 2008 (my XLS initial) and have done every single LPC/OPC in the aircraft. It always feels like a tick in the box as opposed to a positive and continuing learning experience (as well as hard work!
).
P.S. Still on the lookout for a full-time job (damn those Netjets guys!
)
I haven't been in the sim since 2008 (my XLS initial) and have done every single LPC/OPC in the aircraft. It always feels like a tick in the box as opposed to a positive and continuing learning experience (as well as hard work!
).P.S. Still on the lookout for a full-time job (damn those Netjets guys!
)
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It is sadly more and more the case. Even if we go back to the sim once year for my company, it is just to do single engine stuff for 1h30. no practice and no ground school. Two sims, 4h ground stuff and the LPC should be the minimum. But there is not enought money in bizjet at the moment and companies are just trying to survive....
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NJE go to the sim twice a year (min 12hrs per visit) as part of a phased recurrent instead of trying to cram all the systems in one go.
Although as the parent company also owns FSI - there is no doubt some special pricing ;-)
PS - sorry crosswind
Although as the parent company also owns FSI - there is no doubt some special pricing ;-)
PS - sorry crosswind
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We go to FSI once a year, and OPC every six month.
Bit the project is to do everything in the plane, to further reduce costs, or to dry lease a sim and use our own TRI\TREs.
That is a pity, because I love the professionalism and the whole FSI experience.
Bit the project is to do everything in the plane, to further reduce costs, or to dry lease a sim and use our own TRI\TREs.
That is a pity, because I love the professionalism and the whole FSI experience.
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For the descent companies I went to the sim twice a year.
Business class to the US (from Europe!)
With this slightly disappointing economy nowadays I survive with being a contract pilot and so far I am getting by, I have flown for several operators.
What is absolutely amazing to me , operators ask when the last LPC was, nobody actually asks or cares when your last simulator training was, amazing.
As was mentioned before, it is just a tick in the box.
It is my feeling that our profession is losing professionality, everything you do nowadays has more and more effect by the cost factor.
Hope we turn back to the better days (do I sound like grampa?)
CK
Business class to the US (from Europe!)
With this slightly disappointing economy nowadays I survive with being a contract pilot and so far I am getting by, I have flown for several operators.
What is absolutely amazing to me , operators ask when the last LPC was, nobody actually asks or cares when your last simulator training was, amazing.
As was mentioned before, it is just a tick in the box.
It is my feeling that our profession is losing professionality, everything you do nowadays has more and more effect by the cost factor.
Hope we turn back to the better days (do I sound like grampa?)
CK
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Solent - Although I understand your point you are missing a very important point. It is not about proving who is the super pilot that knows everything and can fly the single engine stuff to perfection, knows where to find things in the QRH in least time etc etc. It is about maintaining and hopefully improving flight safety. Its about t as in test and T as in Training. Yes, we have to tick the boxes and satisfy the requirements as set out by the authorities, but focus should be on training. Its about walking away from your LPC/OPC feeling that:
1. You learned something that you did not know before (technical, operational or perhaps about CRM)
2. You feel up to speed with things and feel confident about operating the aircraft and that you got answers to any questions that may have popped up since last time you did training/checking.
If you make mistakes, make them on your LPC/OPC, not in the aircraft. Its perfectly fine to screw something up in the sim. We take a moment to discuss what went wrong, making sure that the pilot in question makes a self assessment and comes up with what went wrong and how to fix the problem himself, rather than someone telling him what happened. Once everybody understood what went wrong and how we should deal with it, we do it again.
I know that there are authorities in Europe that do not allow LPC/OPC to be conducted in the aircraft if there are simulators available for the type of aircraft in question. This was the case in a previous company I used to work for where we used to do checks in the aircraft but the CAA stopped the company from doing it.
As Crosswind says, doing checks in the aircraft will always be more of a "tick in the box" type of exercise.
1. You learned something that you did not know before (technical, operational or perhaps about CRM)
2. You feel up to speed with things and feel confident about operating the aircraft and that you got answers to any questions that may have popped up since last time you did training/checking.
If you make mistakes, make them on your LPC/OPC, not in the aircraft. Its perfectly fine to screw something up in the sim. We take a moment to discuss what went wrong, making sure that the pilot in question makes a self assessment and comes up with what went wrong and how to fix the problem himself, rather than someone telling him what happened. Once everybody understood what went wrong and how we should deal with it, we do it again.
I know that there are authorities in Europe that do not allow LPC/OPC to be conducted in the aircraft if there are simulators available for the type of aircraft in question. This was the case in a previous company I used to work for where we used to do checks in the aircraft but the CAA stopped the company from doing it.
As Crosswind says, doing checks in the aircraft will always be more of a "tick in the box" type of exercise.
Capt Prop
I agree with you.
Unfortunately, most people who hire biz jets seem more concerned with cost, than safety or crew standards. Although some wealthy individuals who own their own aircraft do listen to advice and are prepared to pay for good recurrent 'training', others see it as an unnecessary cost, and have probably made their fortunes by not paying more than the bare minimum for anything.
I doubt much will change unless legislation forces a change.
I agree with you.
Unfortunately, most people who hire biz jets seem more concerned with cost, than safety or crew standards. Although some wealthy individuals who own their own aircraft do listen to advice and are prepared to pay for good recurrent 'training', others see it as an unnecessary cost, and have probably made their fortunes by not paying more than the bare minimum for anything.
I doubt much will change unless legislation forces a change.
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money makes the world go round
As long as there isn't any regulation forcing operators that at least the LPC be performed in an approved simulator, many of them won't do it. Why should they? They were stupid to send their pilots to Wichita, Dallas, Tucson etc. and undermine their ability to underbid prices, as long as the competitor(s) next door won't do it either...
Why aren't there more business jet simulators in Europe? If I am not mistaken, you still has to travel to the US, be there in a hotel at least one day in advance (and sometimes also another day at the end of the course), accept the monopoly of FSI, pay exaggerated prices and deal with a time-consuming TSA approval process every time, if you operate popular types like the LJ45/45, LJ60 and the Challengers.
I wonder why one yet has to come up with the idea of starting his own FTO/TRTO with simulators of a few popular types in a structurally weak, yet easily accessible region where unemployment tends to be high, near an airport - maybe by the help of some EU funding... The answer is simple, I'm afraid: not profitable enough.
Why aren't there more business jet simulators in Europe? If I am not mistaken, you still has to travel to the US, be there in a hotel at least one day in advance (and sometimes also another day at the end of the course), accept the monopoly of FSI, pay exaggerated prices and deal with a time-consuming TSA approval process every time, if you operate popular types like the LJ45/45, LJ60 and the Challengers.
I wonder why one yet has to come up with the idea of starting his own FTO/TRTO with simulators of a few popular types in a structurally weak, yet easily accessible region where unemployment tends to be high, near an airport - maybe by the help of some EU funding... The answer is simple, I'm afraid: not profitable enough.
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Swedish CAA demands that the LPC is done in a sim for JAR/FAR25 aircraft. However special approval has been given on special occasions (ie difficulties/expensive to find a sim). As a result I have done LPC's in the aircraft despite the general rule. This time however I'll be doing a full recurrent, my first since the initial on this type some three years ago. About time I say...
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For a large amount of operators this is not an option because of the cost involved. The major simulator operators such as FlightSafety and CAE Simuflite, still want very large sums of money. That's fine for a private aircraft where the owner foots the bill, but not for operators where their fleet is AOC only, still we are being cripple by ridiculous CAA charges and a recession where clients want £1 for 50p. I am all for simulator training as an AOC Head of Training. However the cost at the moment is sometimes astronomical. The sim providers need to help out!
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However the cost at the moment is sometimes astronomical. The sim providers need to help out!
The answer: the JAA and CAA should be tougher on those who do not their LPC and OPC on the aircraft full stop.
ps the reason why some sims are pathetically expensive is not so much the TRTO like CAE or FSI but the Aircraft manufactureres like Bombardier and Embraer who make a killing selling the perf data to the Sim manufacturer... A Lear sim can be double the cost of a 73 sim because of that
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Yes, have to agree with No RYR here Steak&Kidney. The problem is a market where operators sell themselves too cheap and therefore are unable to fit the bill that comes with the operation they are running. Problem of course is that where does one start? Put charges up for chartering your aircraft and you will loose customers, keep yourself competitive (price towards customers) and you will struggle to pay the bills...... Perhaps stronger regulations is the answer? I honestly don't know....
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I am normally against more regulation, but in this case I'd welcome the legal obligation for everyone to at least perform the LPC in an approved simulator. Valid for the entire region regulated by JARs, starting by a certain date.
This would create a level playing field for all. Every operator could do their last ever LPC in an airplane just before the cut-off date and then it's a fair game.
Let's face it: if you weren't forced to comply with all the CRM, fire-fighting, DGR and what-have-you courses, you'd simply skip them for cost reasons. But you can't.
This would create a level playing field for all. Every operator could do their last ever LPC in an airplane just before the cut-off date and then it's a fair game.
Let's face it: if you weren't forced to comply with all the CRM, fire-fighting, DGR and what-have-you courses, you'd simply skip them for cost reasons. But you can't.
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Yes, sounds reasonable and as I pointed out earlier there are certain EU authorities that already require this giving their operators a financial disadvantage compared to other operators.