Ambeo

[J-Class]

Excuse the post from a humble SLF - but what do you guys think of Ambeo (Mustang 510 operator ex-Cambridge) from a safety perspective? I'm aware of their gear-up landing last year, and (from the comments on this forum) low hours pilots. A friend of mine has asked me to join him in chartering an Ambeo plane next week. I happen to be fairly risk-averse in my choice of airlines (i.e. there's plenty of passenger operators, including one or two in Europe that I try to avoid if possible). I do use NetJets from time to time. In this instance, I could fly a Big Airline to a less convenient airport if required. Would be grateful for any thoughts!

[No RYR for me]

Small unproven operator in my opinion that tells us all they will change the world...

If you want to fly a Mustang go to either Blink or even better London Executive (LEA). But why do you want to fly on a Mustang in the first place? Operational restrictions? For the same money you can charter a nice CJ2 or 3 from an established operator and if it is a one way you might be better of on NetJets

[proceeding outbound]

Sounds more like a smear campaign to me. The wheels up incident was with a FSI instructor as pilot in command a long time ago and was not on the Ambeo AOC.

How do you know we use low hour pilots (I have 9000 hours), our Chief Pilot and Head of Training both have in excess of 20 000 hours - is that enough? We have one low hour co-pilot but most airlines have hundreds. Crew experience at Ambeo is probably well above average for Europe. Furthermore, Ambeo have operated hundreds of flights this year without incident. No RYR, you don't know anything about Ambeo and have no facts so I suggest you keep your uninformed opinion to yourself. Where do we claim to change the world? Provide a safe, top class service at an affordable price maybe.

J-Class, you can fly with Ambeo safely and confidently. Looking for an informed, unbiased opinion on PPRuNe is futile.

[Aerial Chauffeur]

Whilst I thought that the alleged practice of AMBEO charging for interviews was more than a tad shabby, the original post has got to be some kind of muck raking exercise by one of AMBEO's competitors.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

[J-Class]

Aerial Chauffeur, I understand that the anonymity of these forums can lead to misunderstandings, but let me assure you that I am exactly as I describe myself; I've been a member of these forums nearly a decade without needing to feel ashamed of myself. I don't think my original question is unreasonable. I have no commercial interest in any of Ambeo's competitors - or indeed in any airline.

[x933]

From a safety point of view; don't worry about it a massive ammount; i'd venture that their safety record was better than Netjets based soely on the fact that netjets have a bigger fleet and have been going longer therefore must have had more reportable accidents!

Bear in mind that there is a lot of fierce competition in the VLJ market at the minute with Blink, Ambeo, LEA and Flairjet all in the same target market. Don't be afraid to drive a hard bargin - or approach a good broker (Air Partner, Ocean Sky, etc) and ask them to find you a deal.

[Trim Stab]

and ask them to find you a deal.

What is a "good deal"? One where the pilots have their Ts & Cs eroded to the point that they are demoralised and want to quit the profession? One where the operator is forced to take short cuts and make decisions that diminish safety because margins are so squeezed?

If you want safety, better off insisting to the broker that the operator employs all pilots on full-time contracts, pays their annual LPCs and medicals, and gives them decent sick pay. And insist that the aircraft operate with adequate supplementary fuel reserves, that the operator is not penalised if the pilots have to divert etc etc.

[x933]

I don't think i've ever met a client who neither knows or cares what lot the pilots are on - and this will never change. If such a person does exist then they are in the minority. I'm almost offended that you seem to think that there are companies operating who have made fiscal decisions that dimish safety. Those that were caught doing this lost their operating certificates a long time ago and - in the UK at least - are regularly audited by the governing body to ensure this doesn't happen.

You appear to be placing the blame on the client for driving the price down. Ultimately it's the pilots that accept the terms and conditions, driven by a business plan that calls for a low cost base as it's the only way they stand a chance of making money. Don't hate the player, hate the game on this one.

FWIW i've got no axe to grind against any of the operators mentioned in this thread. The market place needs competition (look at British Airways circa 10-20yrs ago for a case study). They all have - broadly speaking - the same target market, and all offer a similar product (It's up to the client whether they prefer the Mustang or the Phenom, I know which camp i'm in but I only sell them) and as such I think it's expected that they will kick off a price war between them.

[Spunky Monkey]

I don't think i've ever met a client who neither knows or cares what lot the pilots are on - and this will never change. If such a person does exist then they are in the minority. I'm almost offended that you seem to think that there are companies operating who have made fiscal decisions that dimish safety. Those that were caught doing this lost their operating certificates a long time ago and - in the UK at least - are regularly audited by the governing body to ensure this doesn't happen.


I think that you should put that quote in "Friday Jokes" in Jet Blast...

[No RYR for me]

No RYR, you don't know anything about Ambeo and have no facts so I suggest you keep your uninformed opinion to yourself. Where do we claim to change the world?

Noticed that you edited your remarks as I nowhere stated anything about low hours nor any knowledge of the operation etc If you read what I say correctly it says:

• go for experienced companies rather than small new ones
• go for a larger aircraft instead of a Mustang for the same price

I did pass my informed opinion to the gentleman in question to be weary of any small start ups that have been touting statements like:

By definition, the low cost air taxi model is based on having a large fleet of heavily used, cost-efficient aircraft, spread across a pre-defined region and which are rarely flying empty.

or this one

Frank decided to move into CUBIC Ambeo in October 2007 to further formulate his business plan, having spotted a gap in the market for executive private jet travel between smaller airports in Europe.

I just happened to be in this industry doing this work since the late 90s at those smaller airports and the experience that both utilisation and empty legs are the main concern of EVERY operator Getting a new more effiocient airframe like an Eclipse or Mustang is not changing our industry: Charter X or Avinode are!

There are too many people from outside the industry that came in and who said that they found the holy grail and would build large fleets of low cost Eclipse and Mustang aircraft...

Like
Acceljet in Iceland
Air Cannes
Atasay in Turkey
Bikkair Netherlands
JetBird
One Air Taxi
Pepe Jets
Poole Aviatiom
Wondair

All gone now or not started and I would second this comment from Phil 2 years ago:

I would thoroughly recommend getting a full copy of the Richard Aboulafia report on the Eclipse......very interesting.

"Combine the business costs of persuing the jet air taxi myth with government spending on air taxi infrastructure , add the cost of the Eclipse fiasco and you get many billions of dollars in destryed value. Jet air taxis and VLJ's, together constitute the worst misinvestment in recent aviation history"

Phil

So not knocking the company operationally but definitely knocking the model!

And hence my recommendation to J Class remains the same.

[No RYR for me]

The list of airlines that are gone or not started is infinitely longer so are those flawed business models too?

Difficult one. There have been a lot of Low Cost start ups that have failed but at the same time a few that have been extremely succesful. Same for Regionals. There have been a few all biz class start ups and only a very few remotely succesfull.. There have been no succesful new VLJ operators that have come even close to their stated goals.....

I think that a flawed business model is when nobody is able to make it work and end up adapting the same model as everybody else has been using until then.

The main problem with our industry is that you will NEVER be able to compete as operator with fully owned/leased aircraft with aircraft that are paid for by sugar daddies..

[kotofeus]

Larger plane for the price of a Mustang? Yeah, you’ll probably manage to get a 15 year old Citation Jet 1 for that price…
I’ve never used Ambeo simply because the company is rather new and I would personally choose from Blink, LEA, Saxon Air, Flair Jet or Synergy…

[FlyingGasMain]

Brilliant, handbags at dawn again. Every now and again you can count on a PPrune thread to degenerate into a bunfight in the space of 2 or 3 posts.

For what its worth (or FWIW if you prefer), I strongly suspect Ambeo are fine, though obviously not as well established as some of their competition.

Whilst price is important to punters, I can see that sometimes people get their fingers burnt by going for the cheapest possible option. Bit like buying furniture kits from MFI really.....

[bingofuel]

One where the operator is forced to take short cuts and make decisions that diminish safety because margins are so squeezed?

Not to mention the ones that 'choose' to take short cuts to increase margins

[No RYR for me]

Nope nice 2 year old CJ2 and 5 year old CJ3 thank you very much... and from Wyvern approved operators that have been in the business 10+ years, who do all their training on the sim and have only full time pilots on the flights involved... So happy from the quality and price perspective besides the larger aircraft...

[No RYR for me]

I’ve never used Ambeo simply because the company is rather new and I would personally choose from Blink, LEA, Saxon Air, Flair Jet or Synergy…

I only qualify LEA as not new in your listing Never heard of Synergy before, who are they?

[Phil Brockwell]

A few too many personal axes to grind here,

Going back to the original question - I would feel perfectly safe flying on any UK AOC holder. Don't get confused between the original question and your personal opinions on the viability of each companies business model.

FYI I'm pretty sure that Ambeo were operating before Flairjet.

IMHO the biggest risk risk you face is losing your prepayment, and that's a pretty darn small risk unless you are buying many months worth of flying.

[LGW Vulture]

"....Nope nice 2 year old CJ2 and 5 year old CJ3 thank you very much... and from Wyvern approved operators........"

Hmmm, Wyvern! Now, its always amazed me quite why an Operator should pay for its own audit and get THE Wyvern Approval! I've been into Operators and ripped the place apart its so rotten, only to see the Wyvern certficate arrive the same day - all one week after their audit!

Me, cynical?

[733driver]

Phil,

You say you'd quite happily fly with any UK AOC operator.

Are you serious? Anybody with a bit of inside info about a number of charter companies knows that no AOC (regardless of the country that issues it) is a guarantee for safe and sound ops.

While I don't know anything about Ambeo, I know from talking to a former CAA inspector that a number of (especially) smaller operators leave A LOT to be desired from a safety point of view. Some cut corners to save money, and the CAA usually go after them IF they find out, and others are to small and/or inexperienced to know any better and the CAA often cuts them some slack trying to help them to get on the right track.

Common issues are related to documentation of A/C performance (runway weight charts, obstacle info etc) for real world use (where the AFM is pretty useless) as well as solid SOP's that are in line with the AFM and EU OPS and are regularely trained and adhered to. The last point is a real concern with any operator who employs freelance pilots that work for more than one or two operators.

I would most certainly not be happy to fly with just any UK (or German, or French, or any other for that matter) AOC operator.

[aerosexual77]

I have used Ambeo in the past for my cleints. No problems at all, good service and prices. I personally wouldn't have a problem recommending or using them again in the future.