Ambeo
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Suitcase Man
Quote "You automatically assume the investors are stupid".
You said it not me. To invest in an aviation start up in 2008/2009 does not put them at the top of my list of shrewd investors!
Quote "You automatically assume the investors are stupid".
You said it not me. To invest in an aviation start up in 2008/2009 does not put them at the top of my list of shrewd investors!
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Suitcaseman you are out of touch to say the least. You clearly didn´t really know what was going on at the top.
Did you really expect the Investor - without the s - to keep putting the cash in until it bled him dry?
You are out of your depth on the knowledge front. Frank´s idea was sexy to an Investor who knew absolutely nothing about private aviation - and he was reeled in accordingly. Problem was, Frank knew little about private aviation himself.
Did you really expect the Investor - without the s - to keep putting the cash in until it bled him dry?
You are out of your depth on the knowledge front. Frank´s idea was sexy to an Investor who knew absolutely nothing about private aviation - and he was reeled in accordingly. Problem was, Frank knew little about private aviation himself.
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The business model was not changed at the turn of the year. Ambeo - or the Investor - toyed with the idea of turning things into something else. Something they had no clue about and didn't really stand a chance of doing in the current climate. He was dead right not to throw any more cash at it.
Don't get me wrong, what Ambeo did on the operational side was fine and many Clients did like the product - but make money? And, wanting the Investor to chuck even more money away? Surely you knew Ambeo wasn't a creaking gate that would hang on to its last hinge for years?
I'm a little closer to this than you think so don't make a fool of yourself.
Don't get me wrong, what Ambeo did on the operational side was fine and many Clients did like the product - but make money? And, wanting the Investor to chuck even more money away? Surely you knew Ambeo wasn't a creaking gate that would hang on to its last hinge for years?
I'm a little closer to this than you think so don't make a fool of yourself.
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I said it before and I say it again: beware of people from outside the industry who come in and tell us all they have spotted a niche and by increasing utilisation and using VLJ's will change the industry.
I think this post by Lost Man Standing on 29th Oct 2008 here http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ml#post4492561 says it all quite correctly
Actually re-reading this thread http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...cranfield.html is a big "told you so" 
I think this post by Lost Man Standing on 29th Oct 2008 here http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ml#post4492561 says it all quite correctly
the 29-year-old entrepreneur got inspiration for the idea after identifying a niche in the market for an ‘on demand’ plane service
Well I'll be damned. What have the rest of us been doing all these years?
I thought that an "on demand" service might be when someone calls up and asks to be flown from the point he demands to the destination he demands at the time he demands (or as soon as possible, when urgent demands arise). Of course it can't be, as that is what some of us have been doing for years yet there is apparently a new niche for an 'on demand' plane service.
Anyone up for running a book on this one? What would be the preference, betting on how long he lasts or on how much money he loses?
Well I'll be damned. What have the rest of us been doing all these years?
I thought that an "on demand" service might be when someone calls up and asks to be flown from the point he demands to the destination he demands at the time he demands (or as soon as possible, when urgent demands arise). Of course it can't be, as that is what some of us have been doing for years yet there is apparently a new niche for an 'on demand' plane service.
Anyone up for running a book on this one? What would be the preference, betting on how long he lasts or on how much money he loses?
When Ambeo were offering Dusseldorf-London for 99euros to fill an empty
sector, it smacked of desperation.
Fly from... | Facebook
sector, it smacked of desperation.
Fly from... | Facebook
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suitcaseman
Why do you accuse the management of Ambeo of being incompetant? Because they could not persuade the investor to part with another million to save your job? A job is not a proper job unless you earn your salary, not just get given it.
Why do you accuse the management of Ambeo of being incompetant? Because they could not persuade the investor to part with another million to save your job? A job is not a proper job unless you earn your salary, not just get given it.
When Ambeo were offering Dusseldorf-London for 99euros to fill an empty
sector, it smacked of desperation.
sector, it smacked of desperation.
Or maybe they were coming back from Dusseldorf regardless, so having not sold the empty leg earlier at a higher cost, they were attempting a go at getting perhaps something rather than nothing....and of course, this may...i say may....have drawn interest in various other ways to the Ambeo brand because of such an unusually low price. Not suggesting for a minute that the price of 99 euros was sensible if it was a price they ordinarily advertised...but lets be honest, no-one would ordinarily sell a leg like that for 99 euros now would they ??.
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suitcaseman
You never answer a question. If the investor decided to change the business model then obviously the original business model was wrong, you do not need the brains of Einstein to understand that.(although by some posts here it looks like one does).Ergo, if the original business model was wrong, the investor was wrongly advised in the first place...agreed??? He obviously did not change the business model because he did not want to loose any more millions and I'll wager the people who tried to convince him to change were the original people who mis sold him the crazy idea in the first place. You have no idea how business operates. Pouring more money into a company does not make it profitable as you seem to think, all it does is prolong the agony. You really should change your name because it says it all, it is the male equivalent of a bag lady and you certainly are illustrating how to be one. The investor has done the only sensible thing and one can only hope he will not leave suppliers short of what they are owed as most failed aviation enterprise do.
You never answer a question. If the investor decided to change the business model then obviously the original business model was wrong, you do not need the brains of Einstein to understand that.(although by some posts here it looks like one does).Ergo, if the original business model was wrong, the investor was wrongly advised in the first place...agreed??? He obviously did not change the business model because he did not want to loose any more millions and I'll wager the people who tried to convince him to change were the original people who mis sold him the crazy idea in the first place. You have no idea how business operates. Pouring more money into a company does not make it profitable as you seem to think, all it does is prolong the agony. You really should change your name because it says it all, it is the male equivalent of a bag lady and you certainly are illustrating how to be one. The investor has done the only sensible thing and one can only hope he will not leave suppliers short of what they are owed as most failed aviation enterprise do.
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First.officer - the problem for the rest of us is that selling a leg for 99 Euros doesn't help the market at all. It'll be snapped up by someone who is canny and knows the market and the net result is that the canny people then expect every leg to be 99 Euros which just drives down the price expectations they have - unfortunately there will be those operators who are so desperate for cashflow that they will then lower their prices "as a one off" so as to get some money in (probably to make an investor see revenue).
Ultimately being stupid with your pricing hurts everyone's business, not just your own.
Solidarity and sense chaps, that's what we need, undercutting the market has but one effect:
Chauffair
Goldair (in whichever guise).
Ambeo
to name but three from a very long list.
If you think you have the best ever idea in business aviation, I will guarantee you one thing - you haven't. It's so boring, but this industry can't deal with "revolutionary" in the long term.
Ultimately being stupid with your pricing hurts everyone's business, not just your own.
Solidarity and sense chaps, that's what we need, undercutting the market has but one effect:
Chauffair
Goldair (in whichever guise).
Ambeo
to name but three from a very long list.
If you think you have the best ever idea in business aviation, I will guarantee you one thing - you haven't. It's so boring, but this industry can't deal with "revolutionary" in the long term.
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It's so boring, but this industry can't deal with "revolutionary" in the long term.
Daifly.....I agree wholeheartedly that a pricing structure of 99 euros for a flight doesn't help the market for anyone at all long-term.....I just think that on Ambeo's part that this was a 'one-off' to get something, when nothing more was forthcoming.
As for solidarity and sense....well, would be nice but I can't see that happening anytime soon
As for solidarity and sense....well, would be nice but I can't see that happening anytime soon
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Credit where credit is due, I never heard a bad word said against Ambeo, all the brokers I spoke to said the service levels where up there. Ambeo started in The Toughest Financial environment and gave weight to customer service levels and integrity - not all the newbies who are still hanging on in there can make the same claim. This business is becoming less about good business models and more about how many losses you can cover.
PB
PB
Play to lose, kill with kindness
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This business
Phil, I think we both know the sums don't add up in the charter arena at the moment. Nor have they since credit crunch last quarter 2008. I hope the demand will pick up, but it hasn't yet with our light jets!
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Phil, I think we both know the sums don't add up in the charter arena at the moment.
The only reason that there are stretches that you can make money with owned aircraft is if you are either very conservative and cost conciieus as well or in times of extreme high demand (internet bubble and 2006/7 come to mind) 
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Air Servant,
You are right - the sums don't add up - but don't forget many industries are in the same boat - unfortunately aviation seems to have 2 problems.
1. Company owners are happy to take salary and take no "risk" reward for ownership or ROCE.
2. The market is oversupplied - but even when an operator goes belly up, their owners aircraft just turn up somewhere else.
Add these 2 things to the amount of competition (and rate dumping) for management contracts and you have a lot of break even (or worse) companies.
Mark my words - someone will raise a war chest and consolidate the market soon - And if anyone does - give me a call, that's a project I would like to work on!
Phil
You are right - the sums don't add up - but don't forget many industries are in the same boat - unfortunately aviation seems to have 2 problems.
1. Company owners are happy to take salary and take no "risk" reward for ownership or ROCE.
2. The market is oversupplied - but even when an operator goes belly up, their owners aircraft just turn up somewhere else.
Add these 2 things to the amount of competition (and rate dumping) for management contracts and you have a lot of break even (or worse) companies.
Mark my words - someone will raise a war chest and consolidate the market soon - And if anyone does - give me a call, that's a project I would like to work on!
Phil
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RIP Ambeo. An excellent bunch of chaps (the ones I dealt with, anyway). 
I agree though with those who say it was a bit of a flawed model. I think the Mustang is a great a/c but, based in the UK, the geography is all wrong and with it's performance, the range is a bit poor. Globeair on the other hand start every trip from the middle of Europe.
I agree though with those who say it was a bit of a flawed model. I think the Mustang is a great a/c but, based in the UK, the geography is all wrong and with it's performance, the range is a bit poor. Globeair on the other hand start every trip from the middle of Europe.
Mark my words - someone will raise a war chest and consolidate the market soon - And if anyone does - give me a call, that's a project I would like to work on!
He has enough marketing clout to make a bizjet booking portal that could really take advantage of all those empty legs.
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He has enough marketing clout to make a bizjet booking portal that could really take advantage of all those empty legs.
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We've done an enormous amount of work on filling empty legs, but it really isn't that simple - if empty leg sales efforts become widescale, all that happens is people expect an empty leg price every time - It's the brokers that sell full price charters who really deserve the "bunce" of buying an empty leg cheaply and selling it competitively -
Lets all use the sale of empty legs to make money, not simply create another break even sub-industry from our already tight margin business.
Phil
Lets all use the sale of empty legs to make money, not simply create another break even sub-industry from our already tight margin business.
Phil