M registered Commercial Ops
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M registered Commercial Ops
I have heard a disturbing rumour that the I-O-M authorities say it is acceptable for operators of M registered aircraft to sell "block hours" to third parties.
The I-O-M register has no infrastructure for commercial operations and when they started up the register insisted that no commercial operations would be tolerated.
Any one have any news on this?
The I-O-M register has no infrastructure for commercial operations and when they started up the register insisted that no commercial operations would be tolerated.
Any one have any news on this?
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IMHO if the sale is designed to make profit for someone it is commercial - you can tell me about as many loop holes as you like, but the fact is that these "management" companies arrange flights for profit.
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Yes its always about money but not always a profit, a jet aircraft was recently leased because it was doing no flying and costing a fortune on the ground, as long as it is operated within the regulations I see no wrong in that. I do understand that AOC companies might see that as business lost but, so be it, someone else is feeding the kids and paying the rent.
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NuName
This business of "leasing hours" on privatly operated aircraft is illegal but too difficult for the authorities in Europe to do anything about. I thought the M register was going to be different.
If what you say is correct consider this scenario. At the moment we have a G registered Hawker in California being operated purely privately for a few months for the owner. It is not doing much flying so if I put a notice up in the local FBO that 10 hour blocks of flying are available for "lease" you say I am not breaking any rules, laws, FAR's. etc. My guess is that within 24 hours the FAA, NTSB, CIA, Dept of homeland security and Uncle Tom would be asking a lot of questions. Perhaps some guys from the USA would like to reply to this.
This business of "leasing hours" on privatly operated aircraft is illegal but too difficult for the authorities in Europe to do anything about. I thought the M register was going to be different.
If what you say is correct consider this scenario. At the moment we have a G registered Hawker in California being operated purely privately for a few months for the owner. It is not doing much flying so if I put a notice up in the local FBO that 10 hour blocks of flying are available for "lease" you say I am not breaking any rules, laws, FAR's. etc. My guess is that within 24 hours the FAA, NTSB, CIA, Dept of homeland security and Uncle Tom would be asking a lot of questions. Perhaps some guys from the USA would like to reply to this.
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It's chartering through the back door, and is illegal. All very well until there is an incident, and the insurance underwriter doesn't pay out as the flight was deemed illegal. Can't see the CAA, or indeed the IOM authority clambering to give their support in this scenario. A fairly high profile accident at Biggin Hill and the subsequent mess it left behind should be enough to discourage people from the temptation.....but alas.
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So I can put my aircraft on the M-reg and sell 4 hour "leases" to Nice and back, 3 hour "leases" for Geneva returns etc. I could lay off all my quality staff, my ops Director, my CP, sub out my camo and flight planners, shred my AOC manuals and still be legal.
I could operate out of Blackbushe, hell it's long enough most of the time.
And who needs type rated FO's,
I could go on, but I think you get my gist.
Nuname, it's a stupid idea and that's that.
I could operate out of Blackbushe, hell it's long enough most of the time.
And who needs type rated FO's,
I could go on, but I think you get my gist.
Nuname, it's a stupid idea and that's that.
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Phil, you know it is illegal, I know it is illegal and I suspect NuName knows it is illegal.
What I want to know is why nothing is being done about it. Perhaps it is now down to you and me and a few others to sort it out. Perhaps we should meet for a beer next time you at Biggin
What I want to know is why nothing is being done about it. Perhaps it is now down to you and me and a few others to sort it out. Perhaps we should meet for a beer next time you at Biggin
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Gentlemen
The M registration was always going to be another loophole for the Cowboys
The M Registration was never to be for Commercial Operations ??
Bollocks it has been a Facade from the start Do we reailly think all the Aircraft on the M Registration are Private Answer NO
The UK CAA are gutless they prey on the decent Legal Operators and tell them they exceeded FDP by 5 mins and they should not do it and they are naughty boys ,They charge a fortune for there services But Meanwhile an M registered A/C arrives but they are powerless to ask Questions unless they are requested to do so by the Manx authorites which they never Do
Its all Bull**** which they choose to do nothing about
Maybe this should be given to the Press and let them do something about it Because if One of these Manx Cowboys lands on your house on an illegal charter try claiming money from there insurers and u wont get a penny
Its about time Brian Johnson and the Manx CAA Got tough on this as they seem to just take the Money of the Cowboys and further more take there word OH ITS PRIVATE SIR HONEST
THere are enough Cowboys on the G Registration without the M Register starting
Block hours for charter as Phil said is charter no matter how you take it and shold be stopped
Glad I am out of the Circus although I feel sorry for you guys trying to do things as per CAA Requirements and the Manx Cowboys taking over the town
Good Luck Lads and let me know when u are at Biggin
Gerry Ex Northern Exec at Manchester now growing Carrots and Cabbage on me Plot
The M registration was always going to be another loophole for the Cowboys
The M Registration was never to be for Commercial Operations ??
Bollocks it has been a Facade from the start Do we reailly think all the Aircraft on the M Registration are Private Answer NO
The UK CAA are gutless they prey on the decent Legal Operators and tell them they exceeded FDP by 5 mins and they should not do it and they are naughty boys ,They charge a fortune for there services But Meanwhile an M registered A/C arrives but they are powerless to ask Questions unless they are requested to do so by the Manx authorites which they never Do
Its all Bull**** which they choose to do nothing about
Maybe this should be given to the Press and let them do something about it Because if One of these Manx Cowboys lands on your house on an illegal charter try claiming money from there insurers and u wont get a penny
Its about time Brian Johnson and the Manx CAA Got tough on this as they seem to just take the Money of the Cowboys and further more take there word OH ITS PRIVATE SIR HONEST
THere are enough Cowboys on the G Registration without the M Register starting
Block hours for charter as Phil said is charter no matter how you take it and shold be stopped
Glad I am out of the Circus although I feel sorry for you guys trying to do things as per CAA Requirements and the Manx Cowboys taking over the town
Good Luck Lads and let me know when u are at Biggin
Gerry Ex Northern Exec at Manchester now growing Carrots and Cabbage on me Plot
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We recently had the following scenario,
A client asked for a flight on a specified routing and found something cheaper, upon checking cfmu an M-reg aircraft did the flight. To give the client the benefit of the doubt we assumed it was probably a friend/acquaintance having given him a lift.
However, about 2 weeks later the same client asks for a price on a different routing and subsequently flies on a different M-reg aircraft of the same type, surprisingly with the same "private" management company, but different owner. Evidence was passed on to the CAA with no results whatsoever...
A client asked for a flight on a specified routing and found something cheaper, upon checking cfmu an M-reg aircraft did the flight. To give the client the benefit of the doubt we assumed it was probably a friend/acquaintance having given him a lift.
However, about 2 weeks later the same client asks for a price on a different routing and subsequently flies on a different M-reg aircraft of the same type, surprisingly with the same "private" management company, but different owner. Evidence was passed on to the CAA with no results whatsoever...
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Phil lets do that.
It is time to get tough. The BBGA does nothing for our cause and I suggest a mass resignation of all AOC opertors and an independant Operators Association started.
It is noticeable that no one from the "lease legal" brigade has responded to my #5 post.
Would people please reply to #5. Is it legal for me to put up notice in a FBO in Los Angeles and advertise for a 1.5 hour "lease" to Las Vegas and back on my G registered Hawker or a 10 hour "lease" to New York and back. NuName says it is legal...lets have a vote.
Give me a buzz Phil
For a start I suggest a stongly worded letter to the I-O-M authorities signed by those who want to. Next I suggest all AOC operators use a ghost enquiries about a 4 hour "lease" from a number of owners and send the evidence to the CAA.
It is time to get tough. The BBGA does nothing for our cause and I suggest a mass resignation of all AOC opertors and an independant Operators Association started.
It is noticeable that no one from the "lease legal" brigade has responded to my #5 post.
Would people please reply to #5. Is it legal for me to put up notice in a FBO in Los Angeles and advertise for a 1.5 hour "lease" to Las Vegas and back on my G registered Hawker or a 10 hour "lease" to New York and back. NuName says it is legal...lets have a vote.
Give me a buzz Phil
For a start I suggest a stongly worded letter to the I-O-M authorities signed by those who want to. Next I suggest all AOC operators use a ghost enquiries about a 4 hour "lease" from a number of owners and send the evidence to the CAA.
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Nuname says its legal to lease an aircraft. There are regulations in force that dictate exactly how this should be done. I have never said any more than that. 
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Hawker 750, can you please tell us all where you got your info from?
I find this hunt quite disconcerting. You guys are quite eager to go after a new and flourishing registry. What about the old school VP, VQ ect why not hunt them down while your about it, hell trans aero 747 400 on VP doing schedules into Europe.
I think you guys should all just calm down and get facts first, sure I will not dispute that there are some shady operators out there that try for a few bob on there machines without AOC's, but this is all registries.
If you find guys like this and have evidance to support the allegation then by all means go on your quest.
And by the way Hawker looking at the facts (as to your other posts on the G4 incident) your not all sure about what is VT, VP or M and what they represent. You my friend should wind your neck in, as one day you might have to ask for work from these guys.
Just keep it clean and play by the rules.
This is my Humblest of opnions and open to the bashing that your about to enstow on my behind.
I find this hunt quite disconcerting. You guys are quite eager to go after a new and flourishing registry. What about the old school VP, VQ ect why not hunt them down while your about it, hell trans aero 747 400 on VP doing schedules into Europe.
I think you guys should all just calm down and get facts first, sure I will not dispute that there are some shady operators out there that try for a few bob on there machines without AOC's, but this is all registries.
If you find guys like this and have evidance to support the allegation then by all means go on your quest.
And by the way Hawker looking at the facts (as to your other posts on the G4 incident) your not all sure about what is VT, VP or M and what they represent. You my friend should wind your neck in, as one day you might have to ask for work from these guys.
Just keep it clean and play by the rules.
This is my Humblest of opnions and open to the bashing that your about to enstow on my behind.
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Hawker 750 - so you heard a disturbing "rumour" then immediately jumped on a bandwagon to crusade against M reg operators?
Before the first meeting of your new committee, might I suggest you check your facts concerning what may be legally done with aircraft on the M register?
http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ded/aircr...plied20068.pdf
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0071115_en.pdf
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0081487_en.pdf
What you fear is not a problem caused by IOMAR, or indeed N, VP-B, V-PC, A5 or indeed the thousands of other registrations that serve a useful purpose, it is the age old problem of operators completely circumnavigating Commercial Air Transport legislation. It makes no difference what flag these people fly under, so why aim the wrath of your unfounded rumour at one register in particular?
Before the first meeting of your new committee, might I suggest you check your facts concerning what may be legally done with aircraft on the M register?
http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ded/aircr...plied20068.pdf
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0071115_en.pdf
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0081487_en.pdf
What you fear is not a problem caused by IOMAR, or indeed N, VP-B, V-PC, A5 or indeed the thousands of other registrations that serve a useful purpose, it is the age old problem of operators completely circumnavigating Commercial Air Transport legislation. It makes no difference what flag these people fly under, so why aim the wrath of your unfounded rumour at one register in particular?
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Clive, you are right of course, but I beleive you miss the point Hawker is making. For sure the legislation is there, but if there are no Policeman to enforce it, or the Policeman that are there, simply turn a blind eye, then of course there are those that will exploit that fact.
Just because it happens on other registers, it doesn't make it OK to have a brand new one allowing the same. Surely aviation safety is evolutionary, and with each new register or operator, the bar should be raised.
I also think the idea of a seperate organisation to represent AOC operators is well over due, and this allow lobbying to the CAA / EASA on these issues.
Just because it happens on other registers, it doesn't make it OK to have a brand new one allowing the same. Surely aviation safety is evolutionary, and with each new register or operator, the bar should be raised.
I also think the idea of a seperate organisation to represent AOC operators is well over due, and this allow lobbying to the CAA / EASA on these issues.
I also think the idea of a seperate organisation to represent AOC operators is well over due
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Clive,
There is too much of a "blurring" in the interpretation of leasing. Of course cross border leasing is permitted, it is known as Annex 6 if I am correct. But leasing is not the same as operating. Leasing is when one party hands over the aircraft and its operational control to another qualified party. That qualified party cannot start "operating" that "leased" aircraft until the relevant Authority gives the go ahead.
People who "lease" their aircraft with a crew are not leasing they are "commercially operating" as they are gaining pecunary advantage.
I am not specifically gunning at the M reg, N, VP (citation at Biggin) will do. What I am upset about is that I thought that the relatively new M register was going to start a clean register and not tolerate this practice.
There is too much of a "blurring" in the interpretation of leasing. Of course cross border leasing is permitted, it is known as Annex 6 if I am correct. But leasing is not the same as operating. Leasing is when one party hands over the aircraft and its operational control to another qualified party. That qualified party cannot start "operating" that "leased" aircraft until the relevant Authority gives the go ahead.
People who "lease" their aircraft with a crew are not leasing they are "commercially operating" as they are gaining pecunary advantage.
I am not specifically gunning at the M reg, N, VP (citation at Biggin) will do. What I am upset about is that I thought that the relatively new M register was going to start a clean register and not tolerate this practice.
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Hawker 750
In the US you can not "Hold out to the public". Once you do it is considered a commercial operation and needs to be operated under Part 135 or 121, depending on size of the airplane.
Let's say the owner of the Hawker that is sitting in California is US registered. One of his friends wants to do some traveling. They can sign a lease, a copy has to be delivered to the FAA and you have to give notice to the FAA at least 24 hours prior to the first flight, so that the FAA can come do an inspection if desired. The lease has to be carried in the airplane at all times. (The commercial operations thing is designed to protect the flying public. It is assumed that if you have a friend with an airplane you know more than the public about airplanes and crews and you can be responsible for your own decisions.)
Since the plane is G registered this does not apply to your plane. You have to abide by your regulations as well as be careful about cabotage issues.
The NBAA has fought long and hard here in the US to allow business aircraft the opportunity to do business. The owner of our airplane wanted to adverstise, so we went through the trouble of going on an AOC. It didn't make us any safer as an operator. That has all to do with the operation itself.
I understand your frustration about illegal operators, but why call them cowboys? I am a cowboy and I am offended by that remark
(As in I live in the country and there are a lot of cows around).
Let's say the owner of the Hawker that is sitting in California is US registered. One of his friends wants to do some traveling. They can sign a lease, a copy has to be delivered to the FAA and you have to give notice to the FAA at least 24 hours prior to the first flight, so that the FAA can come do an inspection if desired. The lease has to be carried in the airplane at all times. (The commercial operations thing is designed to protect the flying public. It is assumed that if you have a friend with an airplane you know more than the public about airplanes and crews and you can be responsible for your own decisions.)
Since the plane is G registered this does not apply to your plane. You have to abide by your regulations as well as be careful about cabotage issues.
The NBAA has fought long and hard here in the US to allow business aircraft the opportunity to do business. The owner of our airplane wanted to adverstise, so we went through the trouble of going on an AOC. It didn't make us any safer as an operator. That has all to do with the operation itself.
I understand your frustration about illegal operators, but why call them cowboys? I am a cowboy and I am offended by that remark
(As in I live in the country and there are a lot of cows around).
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(The commercial operations thing is designed to protect the flying public. It is assumed that if you have a friend with an airplane you know more than the public about airplanes and crews and you can be responsible for your own decisions.)
To me, its easy:
if I borrow someones airplane and pay a sum that does not allow for a profit, its fine. If I pay close to an average market price with commercials, there is profit, hence it requires an AOC.If there is any sort of advertising, one needs an AOC.
If one suspects such a case, report it, if nothing is done, report the authority for negliance.