Greedy captains who won't let you fly
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Greedy captains who won't let you fly
We've all heard of them......surely it's time to name and shame this greedy breed.
Recently, one of our most promising 700 hr co-pilots announced that he was quitting. He had accepted another job and was booked on the course - it was too late, and there was nothing I could do to change his mind. It didn't make sense - he was flying one of the best jets on the block, and we had just ordered the jet of his wettest dreams that would be delivered in less than a year. Now he was down grading to a xxxxxx on a salary of less. His course was booked, and he had signed on the dotted line.
I flew with him on his last flight with us, and then to the bar. After a few drinks he explained it all. For the last year one of our capatins had NEVER let him attempt even one take off, and had only allowed him one landing - despite a company policy of strictly 50/50!! He never had the heart to mention it to me because, as he stated "I didn't want to cause any problems, or CRM difficulties."
Needless to say the source of the problem has been resolved, and soon we hope to get our next future captain back in the fold.
For those of you who may suffer sitting next to such greedy LHS drivers, I would urge you to speak up, and if you feel it is not possible to do in the cockpit, or to your CP, then why not do it here? Such pigs have no place in an industry that taught them, and if they number more than a few its time to weed them out completely.
Recently, one of our most promising 700 hr co-pilots announced that he was quitting. He had accepted another job and was booked on the course - it was too late, and there was nothing I could do to change his mind. It didn't make sense - he was flying one of the best jets on the block, and we had just ordered the jet of his wettest dreams that would be delivered in less than a year. Now he was down grading to a xxxxxx on a salary of less. His course was booked, and he had signed on the dotted line.
I flew with him on his last flight with us, and then to the bar. After a few drinks he explained it all. For the last year one of our capatins had NEVER let him attempt even one take off, and had only allowed him one landing - despite a company policy of strictly 50/50!! He never had the heart to mention it to me because, as he stated "I didn't want to cause any problems, or CRM difficulties."
Needless to say the source of the problem has been resolved, and soon we hope to get our next future captain back in the fold.
For those of you who may suffer sitting next to such greedy LHS drivers, I would urge you to speak up, and if you feel it is not possible to do in the cockpit, or to your CP, then why not do it here? Such pigs have no place in an industry that taught them, and if they number more than a few its time to weed them out completely.
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When i was a young and unexperienced F/O i myself wasnīt really able to speak out all i thought during that period of time, but i would have NEVER accepted a behavior like that - this guy needs to be kicked in his 4 stripes ass all day long and should never be in command again on any airplane.
Shame on this "colleague" and as well shame on the F/O - he could have easily spoken it out and maybe saved other F/Os from encountering the same problem ...
Luckily some guys still get born with balls ...
Shame on this "colleague" and as well shame on the F/O - he could have easily spoken it out and maybe saved other F/Os from encountering the same problem ...
Luckily some guys still get born with balls ...
Last edited by KirkyMS; 29th Aug 2010 at 06:38.
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Strange but in a career of 42 years never came across a Captain like that. I suspect that these guys are not greedy but insecure in their positions, frightened that a P2 will cock it up and they will get the blame.
I have to say now that I am the reverse and tend to say to the First Officer that I will do what ever sectors he does not want....I have to say they offer me just less than 50%, so I can safely say I do not employ greedy First Officers!
I have to say now that I am the reverse and tend to say to the First Officer that I will do what ever sectors he does not want....I have to say they offer me just less than 50%, so I can safely say I do not employ greedy First Officers!
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Touchy topic. Had this happened to me I would have spoken to management. It is the only thing he could have done. I too was in a similar position and spoke with management, who listened and matters improved, but only for a while. This idiot captain even told me that I should change careers because he was of the sound opinion that I was not captain material. The same guy got 2 people fired and kept another FO in the FO seat. Needless to say, he was very insecure and his flying skills quickly reached a limit beyond which he had difficulty coping.
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I think there is obviously a hugh psycological component to this subject and deals greatly with the maturity level of the personalities involved. In fact this even points into the direction of the management involved and how they deal with such conflict issues.
I have experienced managements which simply do not want to be involved or be confronted with these issues or just want to ignore that these problems exist - they just want the aircraft to fly as much as possible. Most given answer to this:"you have a problem so why don't you deal with it yourself and come up with the solution?". So they basically leave it for the people THEY have chosen to get along and make it work. I have also experienced many times, that the captains word carries far more weight, so when judgements are being formed, the FO may find himself on the wrong side of the drag curve. If captains tend to get away with it, they will not change their attitude and the problem will not go away and force the FO to either keep his mouth shut or quit the job.
This is an environment, which I often see in the seemingly "oh so perfect" world of aviation. For me this aspect of human factors is it's weakest spot and the dark side, that especially managements choose to ignore. FO's can always be easily replaced - but under the line it is a hugh loss of human capital and potential.
I positivly believe, that this "kindergarden" is not the general case and there are still many possibilities of working in an environment filled with mature professionals most of the time.
I have experienced managements which simply do not want to be involved or be confronted with these issues or just want to ignore that these problems exist - they just want the aircraft to fly as much as possible. Most given answer to this:"you have a problem so why don't you deal with it yourself and come up with the solution?". So they basically leave it for the people THEY have chosen to get along and make it work. I have also experienced many times, that the captains word carries far more weight, so when judgements are being formed, the FO may find himself on the wrong side of the drag curve. If captains tend to get away with it, they will not change their attitude and the problem will not go away and force the FO to either keep his mouth shut or quit the job.
This is an environment, which I often see in the seemingly "oh so perfect" world of aviation. For me this aspect of human factors is it's weakest spot and the dark side, that especially managements choose to ignore. FO's can always be easily replaced - but under the line it is a hugh loss of human capital and potential.
I positivly believe, that this "kindergarden" is not the general case and there are still many possibilities of working in an environment filled with mature professionals most of the time.
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I always thought that the luxury of being the Captain was that you could get the FO to do all the work, so unless there was a specific training/experience/weather constraint on the sector I would prefer to give 'em all away.
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So he went on suffering for a year and did not tell anyone why heīd quit but did tell you only when it was too late?
Didn't want to cause CRM prob? He prefered to be fuming with anger and diappointment time and again?
What if the other guy would go below minima? No mentioning of that either then?
Does not sound to promising to me, maybe Iīm to harsh, but....
Out of curiosity: how often do YOU speak with your crews? (youīre the chief pilot, aren't you?)
Didn't want to cause CRM prob? He prefered to be fuming with anger and diappointment time and again?
What if the other guy would go below minima? No mentioning of that either then?
Does not sound to promising to me, maybe Iīm to harsh, but....
Out of curiosity: how often do YOU speak with your crews? (youīre the chief pilot, aren't you?)
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CJ Driver
I always thought that the hard work was done by the PNF, much prefer to be PF, but, I do share equaly, we do a day about, never had a complaint and all have agreed it works better than a leg about.
Middle ground needed here.Obviously ridiculous never to give a leg away and detrimental to f/o colleague development.However....at the end of the day it is the captain's licence that is potentially on the line if it goes wrong even on a normal day -this should be known by all parties -ie a sector given away is not a 'right.' Sometimes -weather,airfield complexity etc dictates that the captain flies/should fly the sector.However and personally,have always offered and flown alternate legs with the previous caveat notwithstanding.
atb
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I've been flying professionally for 21 years now and have to say I've never come across this attitude thankfully, most Captains I know of my age happily hand over most sectors these days to young enthusiastic First Officers and enjoy watching their confidence grow with each additional sector with whatever problems it might throw at them.
I guess you have to have confidence in yourself and your abilities to start off with but if all else fails a simple 'I have control' will suffice and a debrief on the ground as to why, simple surely. People make things much complicated than they need to be, who knows the First Officer in question may even buy you a beer in the hotel afterwards for being such a generous Captain.
I guess you have to have confidence in yourself and your abilities to start off with but if all else fails a simple 'I have control' will suffice and a debrief on the ground as to why, simple surely. People make things much complicated than they need to be, who knows the First Officer in question may even buy you a beer in the hotel afterwards for being such a generous Captain.
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You lost me at "airliner", this is the biz jet GA page isnt it? Just what some people think a guy should do after gaining his CPL/IR and 700 hours never ceases to amaze. What captain has not flown with another high timer who is dreadfull or a low timer who is on the ball, keen, well trained and ready to move upwards and onwards. Our Spitfire pilots had only 5 or 6 hours before they had to go to work solo. If a guy can't do a reasonable job at 700 hours it really should be time to find another career, how much help does a competant captain need anyway? Ashamed should be reserved for the elitist, self opinionated aviators extroadinaire who think they are a cut above everybody else.
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Such pigs have no place in an industry that taught them, and if they number more than a few its time to weed them out completely.
I've certainly had First Officers who couldn't be trusted with a wet noodle, let alone an airplane. I didn't hire them, I didn't put them on the line, but I was under no obligation to let them fly. Such have been the rare exception, but I've abided the policy as a Captain to let copilots fly that which they're qualified to fly, and I fly the rest.
Conversely, when acting as a copilot, I don't complain when the captain says he wants to fly this leg. That's his choice.
The sheer arrogance of assuming that you'll get every other leg, or that you should get every other leg, or that you're owed anything in that cockpit, is dead wrong. This has nothing to do with CRM. CRM can go on quite perfectly regardless of who is talking on the radio, and regardless of who is manipulating the controls.
If you are the copilot, you are not owed every other leg, nor do you have any such right. You have a privilege at the discretion of the Captain. The captain is the pilot in command, not you.
If you have a problem, then speak up.
I've worked for operations in which the copilot was hardly allowed to fly at all. I was a copilot for some time in such an operation, and it had nothing to do with the capability of the copilot; it had to do with the captains who didn't want anyone else to do the flying. I eventually went elsewhere.
Do what you must, but for pete's sake, dont assume that you have a right to fly every other leg, perform every other landing, or do anything else in that cockpit; you have a privilege, as the pilot in command allows. In most cases, it does work out to every other leg, but not all, and to assume otherwise, is poor form, and very wrong.
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Take a long look in the mirror gentlemen....you wanted CRM, ...you wanted to hire 200hr marshmellows, passing on experienced pilots because you couldn't control them...
Now you got 200hr punks in the right seat armed with CRM telling you how to fly...you made your beds.....now you get to sleep in it, for years, and years, and years....
Now you got 200hr punks in the right seat armed with CRM telling you how to fly...you made your beds.....now you get to sleep in it, for years, and years, and years....
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Take a long look in the mirror gentlemen....you wanted CRM, ...you wanted to hire 200hr marshmellows, passing on experienced pilots because you couldn't control them...
Now you got 200hr punks in the right seat armed with CRM telling you how to fly...you made your beds.....now you get to sleep in it, for years, and years, and years....
Now you got 200hr punks in the right seat armed with CRM telling you how to fly...you made your beds.....now you get to sleep in it, for years, and years, and years....
1.) I did not "want" CRM, was introduced by the Authorities to the European operators at least.
2.) Good CRM does a marvelous job
3.) The guy in question has 700hrs, not 200.
4.) having 200-250hrs and getting a R/H seat in a CJ, KingAir, whatever is quite usual over here in Europe.
5.) haven't had a punk in my cockpits yet. Most F/Os are good to work guys. Very few are smart aleks, cure for that is most often easy...
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My God, reading some of threse posts I realise how lucky I've been in my career, I thought CRM had weeded out some of these neolithic attitudes but obviously not.
Guys what happened to the idea that up front you have two professional pilots working together for a common aim, the safe operation and carriage of passengers from A to B. In my cockpit the First Officer carries as much responsibility as me, I dont want a co-pilot who thinks that as I roll off the end of the runway he is going to fold his arms and say, it's nothing to do with me Captain, how is this idea breeding Captains for the future.
Thank god I work in a very airline orientated, SOP driven corporate company. Guys some of you need to come into the 21st century otherwise your going to get left behind.
Guys what happened to the idea that up front you have two professional pilots working together for a common aim, the safe operation and carriage of passengers from A to B. In my cockpit the First Officer carries as much responsibility as me, I dont want a co-pilot who thinks that as I roll off the end of the runway he is going to fold his arms and say, it's nothing to do with me Captain, how is this idea breeding Captains for the future.
Thank god I work in a very airline orientated, SOP driven corporate company. Guys some of you need to come into the 21st century otherwise your going to get left behind.
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@Highflight420
Thank you ! Really ...
Adressing the rest complaining about bad F/Os or pilots in general - think about changing the company. If you get idiots to work with, thatīs definately a screening problem. Give them training/knowledge/experience and teach them how to fly properly or ground them if they resist to learn.
And yes i know there are many jackasses out there - 3 or 4 stripes on their shoulders, no difference!
Thank you ! Really ...
Adressing the rest complaining about bad F/Os or pilots in general - think about changing the company. If you get idiots to work with, thatīs definately a screening problem. Give them training/knowledge/experience and teach them how to fly properly or ground them if they resist to learn.
And yes i know there are many jackasses out there - 3 or 4 stripes on their shoulders, no difference!