First Officer logging PIC Time. Yes or No?
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First Officer logging PIC Time. Yes or No?
Hey guys I need help...
If I am employed as an FO on a multi-crew, twin-turbine aircraft over 12,500 lbs, e.g. a B1900 or a J41 how do I log flying time?
I have been told that when I am Pilot-Non-Flying it is as SIC and when I am Pilot-Flying it is as PIC.
Is this correct?? I was under the impression that even if I am Pilot-Flying on say a 2 hour leg; those 2 hours are still SIC because I am the First Officer and not the Captain. Only the Captain is "PIC".
Licences concerned would be FAA and JAA. I'm looking forward to some good advice on this one as I am totally confused.
Its much appreciated. Cheers!!
If I am employed as an FO on a multi-crew, twin-turbine aircraft over 12,500 lbs, e.g. a B1900 or a J41 how do I log flying time?
I have been told that when I am Pilot-Non-Flying it is as SIC and when I am Pilot-Flying it is as PIC.
Is this correct?? I was under the impression that even if I am Pilot-Flying on say a 2 hour leg; those 2 hours are still SIC because I am the First Officer and not the Captain. Only the Captain is "PIC".
Licences concerned would be FAA and JAA. I'm looking forward to some good advice on this one as I am totally confused.
Its much appreciated. Cheers!!
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You can log your PF time as PICUS.
The following is a section of LASORS
The following is a section of LASORS
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a Co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required. (For further details please refer to Co- Pilot paragraph at the end of this Appendix).
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FAA you can log anytime you are the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. Technically if the a/p is on and you are p/f you cant log pic but i did it anyway since the cant check of the a/p was on or not 
JAA, you can't log PIC if you are f/o.
You can log PICUS as said but only if the company has a aproved PICUS program, and then only op to 150 hours. The PICUS program is for getting the 150 Hrs PIC required for the ATPL and since a lot of pilots with the integrated pilot program that go straight to a "ATPL" airplane dont have sufficent PIC hours to reiceive an ATPL. But remember writing PICUS is more than beeing P/F you have to be acting as commander under supervision, You also need to take all commander desicions. So part of the PICUS program is a command training , and usually done with copilots opgrading to commander. (at least here with us).
The value of hours picus is to be debated with a new job anyway. any comapany will understand that somebody with "to many" PICUS hours was flying as an F/O anyway
If you wanna keep track of your P/F hours just make a collum in your logbook with P/F
and remember if you are logging PICUS let the PIC sign your logbook.
Good luck,
SOAB
JAA, you can't log PIC if you are f/o.
You can log PICUS as said but only if the company has a aproved PICUS program, and then only op to 150 hours. The PICUS program is for getting the 150 Hrs PIC required for the ATPL and since a lot of pilots with the integrated pilot program that go straight to a "ATPL" airplane dont have sufficent PIC hours to reiceive an ATPL. But remember writing PICUS is more than beeing P/F you have to be acting as commander under supervision, You also need to take all commander desicions. So part of the PICUS program is a command training , and usually done with copilots opgrading to commander. (at least here with us).
The value of hours picus is to be debated with a new job anyway. any comapany will understand that somebody with "to many" PICUS hours was flying as an F/O anyway
If you wanna keep track of your P/F hours just make a collum in your logbook with P/F
and remember if you are logging PICUS let the PIC sign your logbook.
Good luck,
SOAB
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Son of a Beech
The distinction has to be made between PICUS and PIC. The original question clearly states PIC, I refer to my previous post, PIC on an aircraft that requires a type rating needs a full PIC type rating, I have SIC on the Hawker, I wish I could log some PIC but its just not on.
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NuName, as far as I know, there are only PIC ratings under EU-Ops (JAR), I dont think you can get an FO/P2 rating.
At the company I work for, everyone does the same type rating, LPC/OPC, only difference is, to be a captain, you have to:
meet the company hour requirements
attend and pass the command ground course
pass the command sim assessment
complete the PIC line training and line check
At the company I work for, everyone does the same type rating, LPC/OPC, only difference is, to be a captain, you have to:
meet the company hour requirements
attend and pass the command ground course
pass the command sim assessment
complete the PIC line training and line check
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south coast
I don't know about that, my UK licence is gathering dust somewhere, havnt used it for years, all I know is if you havnt got a PIC rating you cant be PIC, if you have that, all you need is the consent of the operator, insurance and commander and away you go.
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What happens then, if the candidate does not have the required 1,500 hours, FATPL EASA, CPL FAA, therefore cannot be typed on a >12,500 lb aircraft as captain (for hire and reward), FAA is obvious, do EASA recognise the candidate as PIC without a full ATPL? How does that work? Are you sure there is no EASA SIC rating?
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I believe the rating doesnt determine whether you are captain or not, I believe it is firstly down to the licence you hold, (ATPL or CPL) and then your company internal requirements and assessments.
For example as I said at our company, everyone does the same type rating (as there is only one type available), and then the company determine who is a captain.
You can have to pilots flying together, with exactly the same rating, both with ATPL licence, one pilot with 3000 hours has passed the command assessment etc, the other could have 10,000 hours but not passed the command assessment and is not a captain, even if he was a captain at his previous company.
For example as I said at our company, everyone does the same type rating (as there is only one type available), and then the company determine who is a captain.
You can have to pilots flying together, with exactly the same rating, both with ATPL licence, one pilot with 3000 hours has passed the command assessment etc, the other could have 10,000 hours but not passed the command assessment and is not a captain, even if he was a captain at his previous company.
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If you have to have a ATPL to hold a type rating to fly as captain on a particular aircraft for hire and reward, then, you cannot fly that aircraft as captain (for hire and reward) if you do not have an ATPL, it really must be as simple as that, no? The insurance implications speak for themselves.
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Yes, but the point I was making was, even if you have a CPL (fATPL) you still do the same type rating as the guy who has a full ATPL sat next to you.
Anyway, doesnt matter, you are quite right in that the minimum you must have to be a captain is an ATPL and then adhere to your employer's requirements.
Anyway, doesnt matter, you are quite right in that the minimum you must have to be a captain is an ATPL and then adhere to your employer's requirements.
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I am not sure why this question always seems to come up.
It is a simple answer, and spelt out in the FAA and ICAO regs. if you are not designated as a PIC, in your company, and on the trip authority then you CANNOT log PIC time. If you are designated by your company as a F/O. You CANNOT log PIC time. If you are not the PIC on the flight but are the PF, You CANNOT log PIC time. The fact that you are the pilot flying in a multi crew aeroplane does not automatically make you the PIC. The PIC is a designation, he is the Pilot in Command, not the Pilot flying.
And before you all start making excuses about CFI's and receiving duel, under the hood etc. We are talking about a MULTI CREW ON DEMAND/SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL OPERATION. There can be only 1 PIC.
PICUS is a different story
It is a simple answer, and spelt out in the FAA and ICAO regs. if you are not designated as a PIC, in your company, and on the trip authority then you CANNOT log PIC time. If you are designated by your company as a F/O. You CANNOT log PIC time. If you are not the PIC on the flight but are the PF, You CANNOT log PIC time. The fact that you are the pilot flying in a multi crew aeroplane does not automatically make you the PIC. The PIC is a designation, he is the Pilot in Command, not the Pilot flying.
And before you all start making excuses about CFI's and receiving duel, under the hood etc. We are talking about a MULTI CREW ON DEMAND/SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL OPERATION. There can be only 1 PIC.
PICUS is a different story
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Contract4, As far as my legal understanding of EU-OPS goes, there is only one PIC, and thats the Commander of the aircraft. You cannot have both pilots of a two-crew aircraft claiming P1 at the same time. (Except P1/S..... see below)
Confusion seems to exist about the definition of PIC and PF. As a co-pilot you can only ever log time as P2. You may annotate your logbook as PF or PNF, but it all has to go in the P2 column.
P1/S is only loggable after a satisfactory check ride as a Commander....... an example of such would be a line check, or LST/LPC/OPC, and has to be countersigned by the check pilot.
Confusion seems to exist about the definition of PIC and PF. As a co-pilot you can only ever log time as P2. You may annotate your logbook as PF or PNF, but it all has to go in the P2 column.
P1/S is only loggable after a satisfactory check ride as a Commander....... an example of such would be a line check, or LST/LPC/OPC, and has to be countersigned by the check pilot.
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We fly two crew corporate on various types. On JAR types there is no distinction between P1 and SIC as far as licencing is concerned. If a type rated crew member is driving (his or her turn, which in our outfit is most of the time) we let him or her log the time as P1. Simple really, - old farts in LHS don't need to log time, so why not give it away.
On types that a crew member is rated SIC only, (N or validated on other registrations), whatever role he or she flies, it is logged as P2 - only because they are not licenced to fly as P1, so it would be muppetry to try and claim it as such.
Deefer dog.
On types that a crew member is rated SIC only, (N or validated on other registrations), whatever role he or she flies, it is logged as P2 - only because they are not licenced to fly as P1, so it would be muppetry to try and claim it as such.
Deefer dog.
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On the N an SIC does not allow you to log PIC.
The other consideration is insurance! Most insurance have a minimum set of hours to fly as PIC.
Basically if you dont have the insurance hour requirements to fly as PIC then the aircraft is not insured which in itself is illegal?
Pace
The other consideration is insurance! Most insurance have a minimum set of hours to fly as PIC.
Basically if you dont have the insurance hour requirements to fly as PIC then the aircraft is not insured which in itself is illegal?
Pace
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@deefer dog - what you say doesn't make any sense to me at all because that is not the point.
The point is who is responsible if things go wrong in your cockpit and who has the final say ? From what you're saying, it would be the pilot flying, because it is his leg and he is logging P1. Or is that the point where command suddenly gets retransferred ? Sure it is Multi Crew, but who is legally responsible ?
I am P1 rated on my current type, but if I am flying designated as First Officer I would never claim P1 status and log the hours with one exeption: my commander becomes incappacitated and I have to take full control.
Even JAR is quite clear on this, that the comander legally responsible claims to log the P1 hours. If it where otherwise this whole PICUS thing wouldn't make sense. PICUS is for training purposes towards a higher licence - therefor they can be logged as PICUS. The guy supervising is still PIC and can log those hours accordingly.
It is not about who flies the aircraft, but about who is legally responsible and accountable. Nowhere in the Law do I read the FO being accountable for anything.
These definitions should be understood equally by all in order to assertain a proper record of experience and to avoid distortons. If someone starts logging P1 who is not the commander, he is actually frauding his records and will put those of us, who log our hours the politically correct way at a certain disadvantage. What is the point of flight logging, if everyone does it in a different way, as it suits them ?
The point is who is responsible if things go wrong in your cockpit and who has the final say ? From what you're saying, it would be the pilot flying, because it is his leg and he is logging P1. Or is that the point where command suddenly gets retransferred ? Sure it is Multi Crew, but who is legally responsible ?
I am P1 rated on my current type, but if I am flying designated as First Officer I would never claim P1 status and log the hours with one exeption: my commander becomes incappacitated and I have to take full control.
Even JAR is quite clear on this, that the comander legally responsible claims to log the P1 hours. If it where otherwise this whole PICUS thing wouldn't make sense. PICUS is for training purposes towards a higher licence - therefor they can be logged as PICUS. The guy supervising is still PIC and can log those hours accordingly.
It is not about who flies the aircraft, but about who is legally responsible and accountable. Nowhere in the Law do I read the FO being accountable for anything.
These definitions should be understood equally by all in order to assertain a proper record of experience and to avoid distortons. If someone starts logging P1 who is not the commander, he is actually frauding his records and will put those of us, who log our hours the politically correct way at a certain disadvantage. What is the point of flight logging, if everyone does it in a different way, as it suits them ?
Last edited by Propellerpilot; 27th Aug 2010 at 00:03. Reason: additional thoughts...
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Actually there is a distinction between SIC (COP entry) and PIC ratings in JAA, however some countries, especially the UK, choose not to use that distinction (remember, licensing is still national law that incorporates some european requirements, not direct EU law like EU-OPS). In countries which support that there are some restrictions. With a COP rating you can obviously not fly as PIC and are restricted to flying on the usual copilot station, in transport aircraft the right hand seat, with a PIC rating you can only fly the usual PIC station, the left hand seat. If you want to fly in the other one you need to get special training and checking every 6 months to show proficiency there.