First Officer logging PIC Time. Yes or No?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FO on a multi-crew, twin-turbine aircraft over 12,500 lbs, e.g. a B1900
A captain is someone PIC type rated, current and ASSIGNED as captain, by the company, for a SPECIFIC flight.
That means that if I am not assigned as captain for a specific flight, even though I am a captain with my company, I cannot log the flight as PIC time. My colleague will then be the one assigned as captain for that flight and we cannot both log PIC time for the same flight.
CP
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Wherever I'm Needed
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Guys
Wow!
This sure is the right place to ask questions. As I had originally thought; I cannot log PIC time as I am not the captain. I was just really confused when I was told to the contrary by a supposedly 'knowledgeable' source.
Its always best to get a second oppinion, and a third, and a fourth.....
Thanks everyone for the advice.
This sure is the right place to ask questions. As I had originally thought; I cannot log PIC time as I am not the captain. I was just really confused when I was told to the contrary by a supposedly 'knowledgeable' source.
Its always best to get a second oppinion, and a third, and a fourth.....
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: In a suit case / FL510
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contract4
If you are flying in Europe with a JAA license, then your log book should be JAA compliant and to that end should not have an SIC column as this is an FAA term.
Under JAA regulation while acting as PF you may log those hours as PIC/US w
PIC/US stands for Pilot in Command Under Supervision.
While acting as PNF this time is logged in the P2 column
Under JAA regs there is only one type rating which is no different which ever seat you occupy.
Under FAA regulations they have the SIC qualification for those pilots that do not pass a full P1 type rating, we do not have this situation under JAA/EU regulations.
So many people have explained this in previous posts I hope this is now clear and that PIC is different to PIC/US in your log book, 2 different columns.
From a hotel room some where.
Mav
Under JAA regulation while acting as PF you may log those hours as PIC/US w
PIC/US stands for Pilot in Command Under Supervision.
While acting as PNF this time is logged in the P2 column
Under JAA regs there is only one type rating which is no different which ever seat you occupy.
Under FAA regulations they have the SIC qualification for those pilots that do not pass a full P1 type rating, we do not have this situation under JAA/EU regulations.
So many people have explained this in previous posts I hope this is now clear and that PIC is different to PIC/US in your log book, 2 different columns.
From a hotel room some where.
Mav
Last edited by MAVERICK#; 21st Sep 2010 at 16:35. Reason: If only I could get it right first time
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maverick, please go back and read JAR FCL 1.080 again, especially FCL 1.080 (c) (5), think about the term "provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority", that there is absolutely nothing mentioned of who is at the controls while doing a PICUS sector, and then rethink your post. By the way, rereading this whole thread and those others floating around on this board wouldn't go amiss either.
In the u.k. the PIC/US rules are remarkably lax, but in nearly all other european countries you can only log PIC/US time during an approved course that specifies a rigid "method of supervision", usually the command course. Othwerwise you have to log all flights as Co-pilot.
In the u.k. the PIC/US rules are remarkably lax, but in nearly all other european countries you can only log PIC/US time during an approved course that specifies a rigid "method of supervision", usually the command course. Othwerwise you have to log all flights as Co-pilot.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NW
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Threads like this make me wonder why I spent all that time, energy, money in playing it straight....
I will just say this, yet again....if the chief pilots are going to allow in all this parker pen time, that is where the problem starts....it's not with a few of the pilots playing this game....
I will just say this, yet again....if the chief pilots are going to allow in all this parker pen time, that is where the problem starts....it's not with a few of the pilots playing this game....
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely a pilot with a brain cell know's when he is pilot in command. If he is any doubt then he certainly should not be there. A log (lie) book should show appropriate SIC time and its not hard to spot when it does not. This whole conversation must be about peeps trying to portray something that is untrue or marginal at best. Most of the professional pilots I know no longer bother with it and fill in their log books as a matter of duty, legality or justification of requirements. If your not sure if you can log PIC then obviously YOU CAN'T.
PS. I do accept that one can write anything they like in their personal flying log book but I am assuming this thread is about what one can truthfully write.
PS. I do accept that one can write anything they like in their personal flying log book but I am assuming this thread is about what one can truthfully write.
Last edited by NuName; 24th Sep 2010 at 06:43.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me this is simple. Are you licenced to fly that particular aircraft as commander of that aircraft.
I know that if I fly a corporate jet with a guy who has an SIC he is flying from the right and we do an altitude bust its me who will carry the can not him.
The commander of the aircraft is just that if your in the right seat, something goes wrong and you carry the can then you are PIC. If you point the finger at the guy in the left seat and say my mistake BUT im only the FO he is the Captain then ???? There has to be a /US
Pace
I know that if I fly a corporate jet with a guy who has an SIC he is flying from the right and we do an altitude bust its me who will carry the can not him.
The commander of the aircraft is just that if your in the right seat, something goes wrong and you carry the can then you are PIC. If you point the finger at the guy in the left seat and say my mistake BUT im only the FO he is the Captain then ???? There has to be a /US
Pace
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Dzherzhinsky Square
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are signing the tech log, PIC. If not, then not - no matter how much you wanna be or think you sould be. Are you the one who's gonna carry the can when it all goes to a ball of ****e? - if not, it's not PIC.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is very obvious to me and I wonder why the question has even been asked.
If you are employed as a first officer then ALL your flying is P2.
If you are employed as a captain then all your flying is P1 unless you fly with another Captain and forfill the role of a first officer. There is only one Commander.
End of. If not you are lying to all and yourself.
If you are employed as a first officer then ALL your flying is P2.
If you are employed as a captain then all your flying is P1 unless you fly with another Captain and forfill the role of a first officer. There is only one Commander.
End of. If not you are lying to all and yourself.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First Officer logging PIC Time. Yes or No?
You know, I don't care what anything says. If you read the above its an oxymoron, if you are the first officer then quite simply you are not the pilot in command. 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the misnoma here is PIC U/S. This is a 'get out' term used for the benefit of the First Officers traning with respect to being brought up to speed to pass a command course.
The AOC holder MUST nominate the aircraft commander and will specify the requirements laid down to do so.
If you do not meet the AOC holders requirements, i.e. You haven't passed the command course, you are Co-Pilot and therefore NOT PIC. If the AOC holder considers all pilots to be equal and all to hold the rank of PIC then a designated Commander for each individual flight must be nominated, the other pilot become the FO and thus Second in Command.
The FO, no matter if holding the same rating, licence or with more experience and hours, is not the PIC and can only log PIC if the Captain croaks during the flight.
One Commander, who will allow PIC U/S to be logged only if they want to and the company rules allow.
The AOC holder MUST nominate the aircraft commander and will specify the requirements laid down to do so.
If you do not meet the AOC holders requirements, i.e. You haven't passed the command course, you are Co-Pilot and therefore NOT PIC. If the AOC holder considers all pilots to be equal and all to hold the rank of PIC then a designated Commander for each individual flight must be nominated, the other pilot become the FO and thus Second in Command.
The FO, no matter if holding the same rating, licence or with more experience and hours, is not the PIC and can only log PIC if the Captain croaks during the flight.
One Commander, who will allow PIC U/S to be logged only if they want to and the company rules allow.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: at the whim of people I've never met
Age: 46
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The purpose is not to log P1 time but only for meeting the requirements to unfreeze an ATPL.
There is no reason to log PICUS once unfrozen and at that point everything is P2.
There is no reason to log PICUS once unfrozen and at that point everything is P2.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow - EVERYONE needs to slow down on this one.
First and foremost, for the legal side of things there can only be one Pilot-in-Command during a flight. Period. Got it?
Pilot-in-Command under supervision (PICUS) is a Training Event during which time the First Officer may log Pilot-in-Command time so long as they meet certain minimum requirements as outlined in the regulations and the Company Operations Manual.
PICUS does not denote who is legally in charge of the aircraft. Although the First Officer must operationally make all the decisions, they do not hold the licence and are therefore not legally the pilot in command of a Transport Category aircraft. They are, however able to log the time as Pilot-in-Command as it is considered training. The actual Pilot-in-Command is also able to log, Pilot-in-Command time.
Here are the requirements as it applies to a specific airline in Canada:
1. PICUS may be aquired from the co-pilots seat provided all the PIC functions described below can be performed from that seat, otherwise a minimum of 10 hours under PICUS must be conducted from the Pilot-in-Command seat:
Suffice it to say that you just don't go ahead and log PICUS - you have to be approved in your COM, the Training Pilot has to be approved by the operator and the Pilot has to complete paperwork much the same as your initial Line Indoc, you can only log so much, and the aircraft has to be able to perform almost all the tasks from the right seat as from the left and if you're doing it from the left, you cant have people in the back.
You do have to make a notation in the "REMARKS" Section of your personal log too that shows it as PICUS, e.g YYZ-YOW-YUL-YYZ (PICUS). That way they know that when you have written in 3.0, they are only counting 1.5 (and if you write in 1.5 they are going to doc that down by 1/2 so always put in the full amount UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE IN THE COM).
I hope this all helps.
First and foremost, for the legal side of things there can only be one Pilot-in-Command during a flight. Period. Got it?
Pilot-in-Command under supervision (PICUS) is a Training Event during which time the First Officer may log Pilot-in-Command time so long as they meet certain minimum requirements as outlined in the regulations and the Company Operations Manual.
PICUS does not denote who is legally in charge of the aircraft. Although the First Officer must operationally make all the decisions, they do not hold the licence and are therefore not legally the pilot in command of a Transport Category aircraft. They are, however able to log the time as Pilot-in-Command as it is considered training. The actual Pilot-in-Command is also able to log, Pilot-in-Command time.
Here are the requirements as it applies to a specific airline in Canada:
1. PICUS may be aquired from the co-pilots seat provided all the PIC functions described below can be performed from that seat, otherwise a minimum of 10 hours under PICUS must be conducted from the Pilot-in-Command seat:
a) With the exception of taxiing, at least all the flight functions of a PIC including flight planning, take-off, enroute flying, approach and landing; and
b) A minimum of one take-off and one landing for each ten hours of flight time; and
c) no passengers may be on board during thep portion of flight time aquired in the Pilot-in-Command seat.
2. The conditions for PICUS applicants are as follows:a) the applicant holds a CPL with multi-engine rating and a Group 1 Instrument Rating;
b) Has already accumulated 150 hours PIC;
c) Has accumulated a minimum of 100 hours dual flight time in aeroplanes;
d) Has accumulated a minimum of 2,100 hours in aeroplanes;
e) Has passed all ATPL examinations.
3. The applicant who meets those conditions are credited with:a) Not more than 50% of the flight time to a maximum of 100 hours acquired under PICUS;
b) all flight time must be acquired within 12 months preceeding the date of application for the ATPL.
There are some additional references to who the training pilot can be, some paperwork stuff and other "non-essential to the discussion" information, but I'll leave that all out.Suffice it to say that you just don't go ahead and log PICUS - you have to be approved in your COM, the Training Pilot has to be approved by the operator and the Pilot has to complete paperwork much the same as your initial Line Indoc, you can only log so much, and the aircraft has to be able to perform almost all the tasks from the right seat as from the left and if you're doing it from the left, you cant have people in the back.
You do have to make a notation in the "REMARKS" Section of your personal log too that shows it as PICUS, e.g YYZ-YOW-YUL-YYZ (PICUS). That way they know that when you have written in 3.0, they are only counting 1.5 (and if you write in 1.5 they are going to doc that down by 1/2 so always put in the full amount UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE IN THE COM).
I hope this all helps.
