Citation Incident at Leeds
I think that the more pertinent lesson here is that perhaps Cessna should certify an FMS that calculates V1 taking into account TODA/ASDA so that even an inexperienced crew can take advantage of a non-limitative runway.
Landing straight ahead after Vr on an 18000ft runway will have to remain the prerogative of the experience of the Captain...
Landing straight ahead after Vr on an 18000ft runway will have to remain the prerogative of the experience of the Captain...
Last edited by Trim Stab; 8th Jun 2010 at 22:57.
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I think that the more pertinent lesson here is that perhaps Cessna should certify an FMS that calculates V1 taking into account TODA/ASDA so that even an inexperienced crew can take advantage of a non-limitative runway.
Landing straight ahead after Vr on an 18000ft runway will have to remain the prerogative of the experience of the Captain...
Landing straight ahead after Vr on an 18000ft runway will have to remain the prerogative of the experience of the Captain...
Disagree somewhat with the former. Almost by definition, the circumstances under which it is an appropriate decision to abort after V1, or after Vr even, are exceptional. Therefore, it is impossible to predict what the ACTUAL aircraft performance will be. So any calculation would be dubious. Ultimately, this is a question of airmanship.
For example, suppose you have a dragging brake, or a pair thereof. Only once they heat enough to generate smoke and flames is there any hint of problems, other than the accel (which is usually unmonitored, at least against a defined go/no-go, a topic for another thread I think).
By the time you get to the calculated V1 with dragging brakes your performance calcs are already shot to hell. Go? Nogo? Damned if I know. Certainly no chance of a default FMS calc telling you anything useful. You may already be too far down the runway to stop. You may already be too far down the runway to go successfully (never mind carrying a couple of brake fires into the air). You may, in fact, already be facing a choice between two very bad options, neither of which is in any way covered by type certification.
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MAD
But in that scenario your V1 distance calculations would be meaningless too!
a dragging brake or problematic engine would extend the time and distance to achieve V1.
Maybe better to know your runway length and visually pick a spot which would give you a stopping distance and use that as your reference as whether to try and stop or not.
Pace
But in that scenario your V1 distance calculations would be meaningless too!
a dragging brake or problematic engine would extend the time and distance to achieve V1.
Maybe better to know your runway length and visually pick a spot which would give you a stopping distance and use that as your reference as whether to try and stop or not.
Pace
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We are all trained to the certification line, V1, stop or V1, go is a day to day operation but every take off is different.
As said above, they made it out, fine, not even a hull loss, no real issue then.
Anyway, we do react to the training, and i hope that this captain will have the support from its hierarchy for not having followed the approved check list ( or memory item or whatever ).
As certification is concern, fire should not spread to vital components, but as numerous examples taught us, fire is nothing you can control, you barely deal with it. We can discuss the what-ifs for years, but they save their lifes , and this is really the main point.
As said above, they made it out, fine, not even a hull loss, no real issue then.
Anyway, we do react to the training, and i hope that this captain will have the support from its hierarchy for not having followed the approved check list ( or memory item or whatever ).
As certification is concern, fire should not spread to vital components, but as numerous examples taught us, fire is nothing you can control, you barely deal with it. We can discuss the what-ifs for years, but they save their lifes , and this is really the main point.
RAPA,
My experience managing insurance claims is that insurance will not normally be invalidated by decisions on how to handle an emergency. They will only normally dispute the claim if the aircraft was deliberately operated outside of the policy terms which will normally include the legal requirements.
As I have mentioned here before, I used to use Hayward Aviation as the insurerers for aircraft I managed, partly because the policies I took out included liability protection for the pilots. This is something we should all ask our employers for as part of our contracts. I am not linked to Hayward, just found that they seem to understand business jet operations when I used them.
MM
My experience managing insurance claims is that insurance will not normally be invalidated by decisions on how to handle an emergency. They will only normally dispute the claim if the aircraft was deliberately operated outside of the policy terms which will normally include the legal requirements.
As I have mentioned here before, I used to use Hayward Aviation as the insurerers for aircraft I managed, partly because the policies I took out included liability protection for the pilots. This is something we should all ask our employers for as part of our contracts. I am not linked to Hayward, just found that they seem to understand business jet operations when I used them.
MM
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partly because the policies I took out included liability protection for the pilots. This is something we should all ask our employers for as part of our contracts.
That is a very valid point we probably all need to check as it is always a worry flying multi million $ hardware that any of us could at sometime miss something which invalidates the insurance and leaves us liable.
I for one am going to check with the brokers.
If its not there do you know if adding liability protection is an expensive addon?
do you also know whether operating free lance through your own limited company adds any protection in itself? I have had mixed opinions on this.
Pace
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The V1 speed was put in due to the Munich crash to stop overun's. I can agree that if you have 18,000 feet ahead then land back. However in Leeds and many other uk airfields that is not available. These a/c are certified to continue post V1 with a fire.
Many pilots have never had an genuine "may-day" emergency. The chx lists, SOP's and manufactures recommendations are based on learning from previous incidents. Where is the knowledge and experience coming from that says I will undertake a different course of action.
Many pilots have never had an genuine "may-day" emergency. The chx lists, SOP's and manufactures recommendations are based on learning from previous incidents. Where is the knowledge and experience coming from that says I will undertake a different course of action.
Pace,
I can only offer my opinion and please be aware that it is opinion, although I believe it to be based on my personal experiences.
Your liabilities when operating as a freelance will depend entirely on the signed agreement with the client. I do not fly much these days but would always state my repsponsibilities and liabilities and exclusions in my assignment agreement. If you are operating as a company then it would be wise have at least 3rd party liability insurance yourself.
The insurance policies I took out included the liability option for whoever was flying the aircraft, not for named pilots and the total price was competative. I also made sure they included airside car insurance for any vehicle visiting that particular aircraft, something that is not normally covered.
I can always let you know my contacts by PM but do not wish to be accused of advertising here, especially as I have no contact with the insurers comission!
MM
I can only offer my opinion and please be aware that it is opinion, although I believe it to be based on my personal experiences.
Your liabilities when operating as a freelance will depend entirely on the signed agreement with the client. I do not fly much these days but would always state my repsponsibilities and liabilities and exclusions in my assignment agreement. If you are operating as a company then it would be wise have at least 3rd party liability insurance yourself.
The insurance policies I took out included the liability option for whoever was flying the aircraft, not for named pilots and the total price was competative. I also made sure they included airside car insurance for any vehicle visiting that particular aircraft, something that is not normally covered.
I can always let you know my contacts by PM but do not wish to be accused of advertising here, especially as I have no contact with the insurers comission!
MM
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This is not intended as a comment on any accident, but, "pilot error" has never invalidated an insurance claim, after all, that is a large part of what you are insuring youself for in the first place.
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CJ Failures
I had an engine out on a CJ a few weeks back at v1/vr so I took it into the air.
the bad engine was a cessna loaner which had a vibration problem which caused a weld on the main fuel feed pipe to the FCU to fracture leading to zero fuel flow and a massive spray of fuel into the engine compartment.
I rather be airbourne with a 160kt airflow blowing the fuel out the back and creating plenty of time to evaluate the situation, shut it down and return which is what happened.
be aware there may be a few more of these faulty fuel feed pipes out there, the tell tale signs include a small fuel leak from the check pipe under the engine cowl and a slight hesitation on the N1 when applying take off thrust.
the MOR we filed should lead to further investigation. There is an old AD citing the fault part numbers .
I firmly believe its better to take the problem into the air rather than risking
an overun, blown tyres and the possibility of a bad fire due to the lack of a strong airflow to blow it out and besides you will be working on controlling the aircraft rather than firing the bottles.
discuss !!!
the bad engine was a cessna loaner which had a vibration problem which caused a weld on the main fuel feed pipe to the FCU to fracture leading to zero fuel flow and a massive spray of fuel into the engine compartment.
I rather be airbourne with a 160kt airflow blowing the fuel out the back and creating plenty of time to evaluate the situation, shut it down and return which is what happened.
be aware there may be a few more of these faulty fuel feed pipes out there, the tell tale signs include a small fuel leak from the check pipe under the engine cowl and a slight hesitation on the N1 when applying take off thrust.
the MOR we filed should lead to further investigation. There is an old AD citing the fault part numbers .
I firmly believe its better to take the problem into the air rather than risking
an overun, blown tyres and the possibility of a bad fire due to the lack of a strong airflow to blow it out and besides you will be working on controlling the aircraft rather than firing the bottles.
discuss !!!
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If I had a fire on or about ROTATION, if I had 2,3 or 4 times runway legnth left for a SAFE touchdown, IF I had all this knowledge at that milisecond, I would not get airborne. I once had an "incident" on rotation, not fire related, I cut the throttles, landed and ended up in the grass, best decision I ever made. I do not condone anything that is not a part of a good solid training environment, but, it has to be remembered, almost all safety training is a generalisation, blind adherence may not always save you. Swissair airborne fire springs to mind. Getting airborne takes away quite a few alternative options, one important thing is, you can't run away. The whole idea of getting airborne and dealing with it as an airborne emergency is only to facilitate a safe landing, if the bit between departure and arrival can be dispensed with, SAFELY, why not. I wait patiently for the abuse 
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Just a little question, please, in an interesting thread which caught my eye......where in the world (apart from the one cited earlier and perhaps a salt lake or two in the USA) are these 17-18,000 ft runways? Are they relevant to the discussion?
I have been long involved in the same argument as applied to single-engined aircraft and using the full runway so that there's a fighting chance of landing straight ahead when it all goes quiet at 300ft. My heart sinks when I see a student being told to use an intersection by ATC or - worse - an instructor.
I have been long involved in the same argument as applied to single-engined aircraft and using the full runway so that there's a fighting chance of landing straight ahead when it all goes quiet at 300ft. My heart sinks when I see a student being told to use an intersection by ATC or - worse - an instructor.
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10DowningSt,
Whilst not quite as long as that, we are not far off it here in Doha (OTBD) with 15,000' of runway.
We still plan on post V1 being a go speed though...........
Whilst not quite as long as that, we are not far off it here in Doha (OTBD) with 15,000' of runway.
We still plan on post V1 being a go speed though...........
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Thanks Chinchilla, I had forgotten Doha; oddly since I was at the meeting where the Ruler decreed that it was to be the longest in the world. He understood perfectly well that this was not technically needed!
There are a zillion good reasons why keeping flying post V1 is the better option in almost every circumstance. But there is always the unpredictable and unpredicted case which might change things if one of the decision factors is the possibility of landing ahead and stopping in or before the RESA.
There are a zillion good reasons why keeping flying post V1 is the better option in almost every circumstance. But there is always the unpredictable and unpredicted case which might change things if one of the decision factors is the possibility of landing ahead and stopping in or before the RESA.
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Used to p..s off the controllers at Luton years ago when flying a 172, and they asked me if I wanted the extension. I always took it. The runway ahead always looked a better bet than the Vauxhall factory car park if it suddenly went quiet!!! Few things more useless than runway behind you.
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There are a zillion good reasons why keeping flying post V1 is the better option in almost every circumstance.
On very long runways i will know what STD my aircraft needs (stopping distance
look at the runway chart and pick a feature along that runway which will give me a decent STD and use that visual point as a go no go.It is pretty stupid on a runway which could have a Citation Take off 3 times to get airbourne with the normal V1 rules in the first 1/3 of the runway.
But that is only on long runways.
Pace