Paper free cockpits

[Pace]

Can anyone make recommendations on an economical way of bringing data into the cockpit rather than paper and the legalities of doing so ?

I hate updating those jepps or aerads

I am looking at a mobile rather than fixed sytem so anything new on the way which I can push at my Owner without costing him a fortune while being legal.

the aircraft is a steam driven Citation 550 so no fancy anything already there.

Pace

[AEST]

Check out http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ch-plates.html

Legality is not an issue with FAA unless you use a screwdriver. JAA?

You don't run on steam unless you have pistons pushing you.

[Pace]

You don't run on steam unless you have pistons pushing you.

I am sure THE owner would be delighted if we could

Steam driven to me means its a Citation from Early 1980s NOT an all singing and dancing new generation type but still fun to fly nicely cared for and with loads of character

Thanks

Pace

[AEST]

I am sure my owner would be delighted if we could

Who owns you? Uncle Sam?

[NuName]

Pace

I use a tablet PC with a remote Garmin GPS sensor, Jeppview and flightdeck package with a small portable printer. Print your hard copies for a flight, keeps you legal, very versatile system and update on line. Your enroute charts will come by post. This gives you a good flight planning program as well. There are a lot of opinions on this subject but this works for me and its inexpensive.

[SNS3Guppy]

Hard copies of the plates aren't required to be legal.

I fly globally without printed charts; it's all on the EFB.

[NuName]

If your electronic system is not approved by your aviation authority, as far as they are concerned it does not exist. If it is approved it will be considerably more expensive than what I previously described. Also, I would NOT encourage any pilot to rely solely on a system such as I described in serious IMC, or otherwise for that matter. Shooting an approach with a PC on your lap can be interesting to say the least. And of course PC's always give you what you want when you want it. Hmmnnnn

[Global Warrior]

If you get Jeppview, you can use the options to only print out your list of favourite airports, ie the ones you go to regularly, and then when you get new discs, every 2 weeks, it will allow you to print out only the amendments for your list of favourites. Therefore you have hardly any updating to do but still have all the plates for all the airfields in your geographic area available in case you go somewhere different.

Jeppview is updated either via a CD or online and the subscription price is around th same as for the paper amendment service so potentially your only expenditure is a laptop and a printer

[SNS3Guppy]

If your electronic system is not approved by your aviation authority, as far as they are concerned it does not exist.

Then get one that is.

I've been using electronic flight bags for several years now. They are no more difficult to use than paper charts, and do offer significant advantages. Personally, I prefer paper. However, presently I'm not presented with paper.

EFB's in a cockpit should be a set. One, in the event a second becomes unavailable, or one for each pilot in a two pilot cockpit.

The EFB makes selecting another procedure a snap. I can quickly set up and organize only the charts I want on an electronic clip. As I transition from arrival to approach to landing, I can move from the arrival chart to the approach chart to the airport diagram seamlessly. If I'm given another runway unexpectedly, I can quickly add it to the clip with a tap of the finger, and just as quickly get rid of it. Diversions aren't a problem. No having to dig through a binder, or having to find another binder.

I can zoom in on an electronic chart, something I can't do on a paper chart. A busy airport with a lot of information and small writing? Not a problem. I can even rearrange the chart to show only those parts of the chart that I wish to see on a procedure, without having to look over parts I don't need.

When it comes to updates, the current update is loaded, plus the next when it comes in. At revision time, the system switches over to the new database, automatically, without my need to file any paper or do anything but check effectivity of the new database.

I fly internationally, and have to maintain charts globally. That's a lot of charts. The EFB drastically reduces the volume of those charts. Presently I keep paper enroute charts, as I've been unimpressed with them in an electronic format. I like being able to handle the larger chart, especially when trying to scan along a lengthy route or airway. I've had enroute capability,including both VFR and IFR charts, on the EFB before, but didn't care for them.

If it is approved it will be considerably more expensive than what I previously described.

I didn't actually see a cost described previously...however, the cost of doing business is the cost of doing business. If one isn't going to get an approved system, then why bother at all?

If you're doing very little flying, printing the charts every time will work. I've done that, too...in fact we did that for over a year while getting our current system approved. We used the EFB and the printed charts. Unfortunately to print the volume of charts needed for each flight, with the frequency of flights, we may have killed off an entire forest just to make the paper. Presently, that's not an issue. We have the option of printing charts at any time, including during the flight, and we can send to the printer directly from our sets in the cockpit...but we don't. With the EFB, it isn't necessary.

[Sepp]

Pace You don't mention whether you're flying on an N-reg, or trying to turn a profit under the combined encumbrance of Cash-and-Aggro plus EASA. If the latter, take a look at this: http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/c/doc/jaa/TGL-36.pdf

Class 1 EFBs may not pose a problem, procurement-wise, but provision of a "certified power source" and satisfying the requirements in 6.1.1. (a) may well stop you in your tracks - depending on how much your a/c owner wants to throw at the problem. Have fun, also, complying will everyting in Section 7 and with finding the dosh for the inevitably huge charge C&A will levy for their time and effort.

If money is no object, how about Cessna's glass cockpit refit ('twas reported in Direct Approach a couple of months back)? Not yet EASA certified afaik but you never know - stranger things have happened...

[NuName]

My dear Guppy

What didnt you understand about "economical" your suggestion requires 2 complete, approved separate systems, and that would be fun in a Citation cockpit. The cost of doing business globaly for you maybe should not be compared with a chap operating a C550. If you bother to read the original post then you might be able to make some relevant comments. There is an avionic upgrade also that would incorporate a dual EFB system ensuite, trouble is, it would cost more that the value of the aircraft. As I said earlier, There are a lot of opinions on this subject but this works for me and its inexpensive.

[SNS3Guppy]

What didnt you understand about "economical" your suggestion requires 2 complete, approved separate systems, and that would be fun in a Citation cockpit.

I'm not your dear guppy, brightspark, and I understand very well the economics in equipping the airplane. Fun is as fun does, but two EFB's in a cockpit the size of a Citation is no problem whatsoever...nor is equipping them with a power source, providing for their updating, their use, or their maintenance. Been there, done that...many times.

Obviously, you haven't.

The cost of doing business globaly for you maybe should not be compared with a chap operating a C550.

The cost of doing business is the cost of doing business, and I've used dual EFB setups in turboprops and turbojets, domestically and internationally. I cited my present example because that's what I'm using this moment. I've used them in turboprop corporate equipment with great success. Again, obviously you haven't. Lacking the experience then, perhaps you simply don't know. Many cockpits in light turbojet aircraft today fly paperless using electronic flight bags, and many excellent, approved options are available for installation.

If you bother to read the original post then you might be able to make some relevant comments.

I did read the original post, and my comments are quite relevant. That you have no experience with the subject perhaps means you're not qualified..perhaps not qualified to understand, perhaps not qualified to recommend, perhaps not qualified to comment. It doesn't mean that my comments aren't relevant...as I'm referring precisely to that requested by the original poster.

Two Electronic Flight Bags in a cockpit are a modest investment. In turn, they free up considerable weight and space that would ordinarily be taken up by many volumes of Jepp charts. They're light weight, fit easily under a seat or between the seat and the pedestle, or in a drawer. Outfitting them with an electrical supply is a simple thing, easily done, and not a complex undertaking. Using the EFB reduces charting errors from mistakes made during revision updates. No more lost charts. No more fumbling for charts during a diversion, or realizing that the volume one needs is under a rear seat or in the baggage. No more having only one chart for both pilots. No more tying up a flight crew doing updates, when the crew could be doing something else. No more having to worry about catching up with updates while on the road or having the updates catch up with you. Updates are simple. In addition, the EFB can carry additional information, such as checklists, maintenance publications, etc.

There is an avionic upgrade also that would incorporate a dual EFB system ensuite, trouble is, it would cost more that the value of the aircraft.

Which is irrelevant to the request of the original poster, and something that YOU suggested, not me. Therefore, your input on the subject is irrelevant, isn't it? Seems you got that backward.

Going paperless means getting EFB's. These do NOT cost more than the aircraft...dual EFB's can be had for several thousand dollars. A very small, modest investment. You know of a CE-550 that costs less than several thousand dollars? Impressive.

The original poster asked about going paperless. This means EFB's. Using a laptop and printing charts isn't paperless. What part of that do you not understand?

[NuName]

Brightspark to Guppy

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers old chap, my experience, by the way, is quite considerable on this subject with approved, built in and non approved EFB systems. World wide over many years working with both wealthy and not so wealthy operators. Your post directed to me was most entertaining, but, however, not very informative. The cost of doing business for one may not be acceptable to another, thats why some survive and others do not. As for the benefits of an EFB, I am most grateful for you pointing that out, most of us out here in the world might have let those things escape us.
Get real guppy, most all of us know what they do, we all know what they look like, how they work, what they cost, and the installation problems with our individual aviation authorities. The guy asked for a suggestion for a simple, inexpensive fix for a paperless cockpit. In this business that just means that you don't have to carry all the paper but you have access to it. I will not respond further, I am not interested in a bun fight with you.

[AEST]

If your electronic system is not approved by your aviation authority, as far as they are concerned it does not exist.

Correct, in as far as the FAA is concerned with respect to the traditional charts, the paper does not exist since it has not been "approved" by them.

Seriously, they require you to have current charts, but do not specify the support on which these be displayed. If you "install" (screwdriver rule) the system it does need to be approved. Since neither the paper nor the EFB needs to be installed using any tool neither require approval. (The power supply most likely will require some approval, but that's a breeze)

Rules may differ in JAA-land and most likely you should take your current paper charts to them to have their blessing that you're using the correct paper type (grammage, size, whiteness, etc) for support of your charts.

Now seriously, you should not be entirely dependent on anything that has Mr Gates software in it. Either print out paper copies, make a PDF copy for an electronic book (iRex Iliad), or get a second EFB for your co-pilot.

[SNS3Guppy]

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers old chap,

I'm not your chap either, mate, and my feathers remain unruffled. I'm still curious how you arrive at an EFB installation using a couple of 2,000 dollar units, that costs more than that CE-525. Quite an imagination you have there...or is just perhaps creative mathematics, gone wrong?

[His dudeness]

Now seriously, you should not be entirely dependent on anything that has Mr Gates software in it.

Well, the Citation Sovereign runs on Windows 2000 (the entire avionics, MAU 1-4).
Scary, innit?

Nuname, Guppy please do go on, I just made me some popcorn...

[Pace]

Thanks all for the information which has been very useful. I think 2 EFBs for stored data plus printed trip kits and paper enroute charts is the most practical for my operation.

i dont know whether there is any mileage in the new I pad?

My next problem is that the Citation has a fairly packed panel and gets its GPS nav from a King 90B.

Apart from being a pain loading the points it could really do with updating to some sort of low cost FMS.

There is room on the centre console between the pilots. Any recommendations for a LOW Cost unit which will do the job.

I have been advised that Universal are releasing a small unit which is designed for the lower end of the market? But maybe there is something else?

Again thanks! lively

Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

A full FMS, new, is an expensive proposition. However, depending on how far you want to go and how much you want to include, there are very inexpensive nav and communications options that you can use.

I used a Garmin 430 and 530 in a Lear 35 and it did very well. I'd prefer a UNS for that application, but the Garmins did fine.

GNS units are less in favor these days; you may be able to pick some up for less change than more up to date systems. Then again, depending on how much you want to spend, you can outfit the entire panel as glass, and include a FMS with the works for a price...and depending on how close you want to come to that, the price goes down from there.

The best bet is to identify the specifics of what you want, and sit down with an avionics shop to explore the options and their recommendations. As pilots, we'd love to have all sorts of gadgets in the airplane, but it's not always cost effective, and the installation isn't always practical. With the wide array of avionics options available today, some of the slightly older systems are being replaced, and can be had for an excellent value. A collins 85 EFIS suite can be a bargain if you get it as a used unit in something that's upgraded. Check with your avionics shop to see what they have available and what they recommend.

[johns7022]

1- Printing charts is for idiots that hope they don't have to divert when they have a pres/engine problem half way to their destination. You just can't print out all the charts you really will need. If you over night and the boss wants to go someplace unplanned, is there is a printer in the hotel?

2- EFBs are perfect for the Global 135 op, every chart on earth, but it's $1500 year for the subscription, and $20k+ install...that's big jet stuff...if they can pony up $20 mil for a plane, EFBs, HUDs, ect...why not.

3- Costwise...domestic US in a Citation, I'll take NOAA charts...$150 yr, full US. Put half the US behind the seat, the other half up in the nose. Trip kits for Mexico and Canada. If a guy is typicaly only doing half the US..get's even cheaper.....not everyone is comfy going down to mins with these charts, but for me they are the bomb.

I did alot of contract flying and you just don't know when ground will give you different SID or this or that jet will have current charts on board...you show up with what you have to make the job work. NOAA digital is pretty cool as well...executed plenty of approaches with an NOAA chart on my laptop, plugged into the 12v...it's not an EFB but it gives you a nice 15" approach chart display..works for me.

Call me old school, but most of the toys on these planes is more hassle then it's worth and tends to get the pilots more busy then they have to be...taught plenty of owners how to fly their jets, many of which showing me some toy, while they blow through the localizer..

Give me a hand held GPS, LOC/GS and some NOAA charts...done.

[SNS3Guppy]

2- EFBs are perfect for the Global 135 op, every chart on earth, but it's $1500 year for the subscription, and $20k+ install...that's big jet stuff...if they can pony up $20 mil for a plane, EFBs, HUDs, ect...why not.

You make it sound as though an EFB is the lap of luxury, unattainable by those in a lowly Citation.

EFB's are in use in Cessna 172s. I used them in a fleet of turboprop aircraft. You seem to think that a Citation only needs enough to cover a small portion of domestic flying. In turboprop equipment, I found I needed and utilized the entire country, plus surrounding countries...and I used them constantly. We freed up considerable weight and space when we eliminated the paper charts. An EFB isn't a HUD, and it isn't exotic. It's a basic piece of cockpit equipment; it's another way to display charts, albeit a considerably more efficient one.

An EFB isn't a "rich kid's toy," but a tool, and is a representation of an aeronautical chart. The pilot in question isn't a "rich kid," but a forum member who specifically asked for recommendations on a paperless system.