New Milano, and Rome TMAs
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New Milano, and Rome TMAs
Hi
When I was doing approach to Samedan today, I just want to turn over lago di Como, when I have seen something terrible on my GPS. There is new Milano and Rome TMAs, that is vertically from 1500ft AGL to FL195. The TMAs are BIG. They are probablly biggest TMAs in the world. And what is worst, on map it is shown as an airspace A, so no VFR traffic at all (just special VFR).
Does it mean end of General Aviation in some parts of Itally? What about gliders?
When I was doing approach to Samedan today, I just want to turn over lago di Como, when I have seen something terrible on my GPS. There is new Milano and Rome TMAs, that is vertically from 1500ft AGL to FL195. The TMAs are BIG. They are probablly biggest TMAs in the world. And what is worst, on map it is shown as an airspace A, so no VFR traffic at all (just special VFR).
Does it mean end of General Aviation in some parts of Itally? What about gliders?
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Does it mean end of General Aviation in some parts of Itally? What about gliders?
I haven't flown there for ages now, but it is nice to know that some action has be taken and someone with the power to change things are listening so wish them all the best. Let see what happens.
PZ
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I can't get why you referred to the special VFR, by the way, VFR flights are not forbidden at all, but allowed along designed VFR routes and sectors, even if you are still asked "to stay down".
As stated by PZ, maybe they are "reverting the course" .....
As stated by PZ, maybe they are "reverting the course" .....
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I landed at Samedan a couple of days ago and nearly had a heart attack. Nothing to do with Italian TMA's, but more to do with the new parking charges. More than 2 hours on the ground and you pay 1000 Swiss Francs - thedaily rate!
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Hi all,
PZ flagged this thread on the Italian section here on PPRuNe, and so I came to check it out and make a few comments.
First of all, Milano and Roma TMAs have been like this forever! I started to fly in 1990, and they were exactly the same size, only extending up to FL460 back then. Eurocontrol then started to standardize the upper airspace and so the TMAs now "only" reach FL195...
Truth is, in Italy VFR flying is considered a big sin, and thus GA planes are often subject to ridicuolous treatments by ATS and ATC units. What's worse is the fact that different ATC units controlling different CTRs treat VFR traffic in completely different ways, unfortunately. Bologna and Florence, where ATC are civilian from ENAV, are quite helpful to VFR traffic and often give good direct clearance to VFR overflights at altitude, while for instance Pisa, whose ATCOs are military from the Air Force, is always very restrictive and punitive towards VFR flight. A friend was forced to fly 3NM off the coastline at 500' instead of following the published VFR route, which is coastline and 1000', because of the usual "heavy IFR traffic". And he had a discrete transponder code and 2-way radio all the time!!
The Milano and Roma TMAs add another very italian touch to the ICAO definition of "Class A". If you read the fine print in AIP Italia, you'll find mention of some "VFR Sectors" in the 2 TMAs, basically areas which by definition are part of the TMA as they are within both the lateral and vertical limits of the TMA, but where VFR flying is permitted up to a specified altitude, different sector by sector. These sectors are charted in the new Jeppesen VFR+GPS charts with a thinner red line and a note like "A 2000-FL195" (east of Rome, for example), meaning that VFR is possible up to 2000' AMSL in that sector.
Of course GPS units do not chart these sectors, so your GPS will keep beeping and putting out alerts for airspace while infact you are in a VFR sector *inside* a Class A airspace, so the GPS is right!
Having said all this, two private citizens, the above mentioned pilot who was sent by Pisa Approach at 500' 3NM off the coastline, and myself have started to pester some folks in different offices in Rome, and after a few meetings and many emails and phone calls, certain things are starting to slightly move. This doesn't mean that things have all of a sudden improved much, but there are good indications that some new key managers in different organizations are finally starting to also consider the VFR constituency worth of some credit.
Finally, VFR in Italy is not dead, it's GA that is almost dead, since most newcomers to flying in Italy opt to fly what we call "VDS" which are microlights (max 2 seats and 450kg MTOW), whose requirements in terms of licensing and maintenance are much more reasonable than the mess we've seen throughout Europe with GA.
Glad to answer any question about italian airspace, should there be any!
Ciao, Luca
PZ flagged this thread on the Italian section here on PPRuNe, and so I came to check it out and make a few comments.
First of all, Milano and Roma TMAs have been like this forever! I started to fly in 1990, and they were exactly the same size, only extending up to FL460 back then. Eurocontrol then started to standardize the upper airspace and so the TMAs now "only" reach FL195...
Truth is, in Italy VFR flying is considered a big sin, and thus GA planes are often subject to ridicuolous treatments by ATS and ATC units. What's worse is the fact that different ATC units controlling different CTRs treat VFR traffic in completely different ways, unfortunately. Bologna and Florence, where ATC are civilian from ENAV, are quite helpful to VFR traffic and often give good direct clearance to VFR overflights at altitude, while for instance Pisa, whose ATCOs are military from the Air Force, is always very restrictive and punitive towards VFR flight. A friend was forced to fly 3NM off the coastline at 500' instead of following the published VFR route, which is coastline and 1000', because of the usual "heavy IFR traffic". And he had a discrete transponder code and 2-way radio all the time!!
The Milano and Roma TMAs add another very italian touch to the ICAO definition of "Class A". If you read the fine print in AIP Italia, you'll find mention of some "VFR Sectors" in the 2 TMAs, basically areas which by definition are part of the TMA as they are within both the lateral and vertical limits of the TMA, but where VFR flying is permitted up to a specified altitude, different sector by sector. These sectors are charted in the new Jeppesen VFR+GPS charts with a thinner red line and a note like "A 2000-FL195" (east of Rome, for example), meaning that VFR is possible up to 2000' AMSL in that sector.
Of course GPS units do not chart these sectors, so your GPS will keep beeping and putting out alerts for airspace while infact you are in a VFR sector *inside* a Class A airspace, so the GPS is right!
Having said all this, two private citizens, the above mentioned pilot who was sent by Pisa Approach at 500' 3NM off the coastline, and myself have started to pester some folks in different offices in Rome, and after a few meetings and many emails and phone calls, certain things are starting to slightly move. This doesn't mean that things have all of a sudden improved much, but there are good indications that some new key managers in different organizations are finally starting to also consider the VFR constituency worth of some credit.
Finally, VFR in Italy is not dead, it's GA that is almost dead, since most newcomers to flying in Italy opt to fly what we call "VDS" which are microlights (max 2 seats and 450kg MTOW), whose requirements in terms of licensing and maintenance are much more reasonable than the mess we've seen throughout Europe with GA.
Glad to answer any question about italian airspace, should there be any!
Ciao, Luca
