Best Way To Become Bizjet Pilot?
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Best Way To Become Bizjet Pilot?
Hi,
I really want to fly Biz jets and have just completed my CPL MEIR and G1000 training. I have never really been interested in flying for airlines and currently have just over 300hrs so a complete novice! I just wanted to know what people would advise is the best way to get into flying Bizjets from your experiences and which types of aircraft you started on.
Is there any particular aircraft that is the best to get rated on for job availability?
Any feedback or advice greatly appreciated.
V1
I really want to fly Biz jets and have just completed my CPL MEIR and G1000 training. I have never really been interested in flying for airlines and currently have just over 300hrs so a complete novice! I just wanted to know what people would advise is the best way to get into flying Bizjets from your experiences and which types of aircraft you started on.
Is there any particular aircraft that is the best to get rated on for job availability?
Any feedback or advice greatly appreciated.
V1
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Is there any particular aircraft that is the best to get rated on for job availability
You will get short shrift by coming on here and implying you will pay for a TR and THEN look for a job. Paying for your own TR sticks in the throat for most of us and is a very controversial subject in general.
Good luck with you job hunting!
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It was simple for me really.
I did alot of work in the piston engine market, almost entirely charter work an light twins. This experience led me perfectly into the biz jet arena. It was a natural transition for me.
King Air work as an F/O is also a great way to get in, or flying something similar. You might also consider the usual routes like instructing or para-dropping.
Alot of my friends got into this through those routes.
But remember, you paid for your licences, you need to value the qualifications you have. If you start paying for your own qualifications it will take longer to get a return on your investment and also the guy sat next to you may not be so chuffed.
But... in the end you have to make your own mind up.
Good luck
I did alot of work in the piston engine market, almost entirely charter work an light twins. This experience led me perfectly into the biz jet arena. It was a natural transition for me.
King Air work as an F/O is also a great way to get in, or flying something similar. You might also consider the usual routes like instructing or para-dropping.
Alot of my friends got into this through those routes.
But remember, you paid for your licences, you need to value the qualifications you have. If you start paying for your own qualifications it will take longer to get a return on your investment and also the guy sat next to you may not be so chuffed.
But... in the end you have to make your own mind up.
Good luck
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I did: PPL, 800 hours private flying, FI, Para dropping, piston twin air taxi to 2000 hours, bizjet. Makes sense?
I was not asked to pay for my rating but did accept a bond, decreasing pro -rata over 2 years with a decent salary. If, however, you have little or no relevant experience and won't /can't put in the hard yards then you may see paying for a rating as an option. You might get lucky and land a RHS "job" with a private operator on some dodgy register with a 70 year old alcoholic captain who left his last airline before he was pushed. He'll tell you all about the good old days when the Captain was second only to God and all that CRM c***p hadn't been invented. He can't believe that these little jets have to be operated multi-crew and as you won't have any SOPs anyway, he'll continually show you how it should be done while you do the flight planning, serve the passengers and operate the radio (for little or no money).
And that's if you are lucky enough to find a position on the type that you have paid for. How you will kick yourself if a job comes up on one of the other 50 types that you could have gone for but only if you pay for the rating.....
But then you know this deep down, don't you? Just like the lemmings trying to get airline jobs straight out of kindergarten. If you have no respect for yourself then don't expect an employer to respect you and certainly don't come on the forums in a few months'/years' time looking for sympathy for your poor treatment.
I was not asked to pay for my rating but did accept a bond, decreasing pro -rata over 2 years with a decent salary. If, however, you have little or no relevant experience and won't /can't put in the hard yards then you may see paying for a rating as an option. You might get lucky and land a RHS "job" with a private operator on some dodgy register with a 70 year old alcoholic captain who left his last airline before he was pushed. He'll tell you all about the good old days when the Captain was second only to God and all that CRM c***p hadn't been invented. He can't believe that these little jets have to be operated multi-crew and as you won't have any SOPs anyway, he'll continually show you how it should be done while you do the flight planning, serve the passengers and operate the radio (for little or no money).
And that's if you are lucky enough to find a position on the type that you have paid for. How you will kick yourself if a job comes up on one of the other 50 types that you could have gone for but only if you pay for the rating.....
But then you know this deep down, don't you? Just like the lemmings trying to get airline jobs straight out of kindergarten. If you have no respect for yourself then don't expect an employer to respect you and certainly don't come on the forums in a few months'/years' time looking for sympathy for your poor treatment.
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Hello!
Does that include the ATPL theory? If not, get that ASAP. Work night shifts at a filling station, clean aeroplanes or whatever comes up to pay for it. I only know the situation in Germany, it might be differnt in the UK (but why should it?) - there are hundreds of type-rated, experienced ATPL holders desperately looking for a job. Just have a look at the sticky "Seeking work?" thead at the very top of this forum.
Without the (frozen) APTL your options will be very, very limited in the bizjet world. There are only a few Part23 jets that can be flown by CPL holders. And again, your competition will be candidates with ATPL, so why should the employer prefer you over more qualified pilots? The CAA might see it different, but since 2008 our authority does not issue Part 25 co-pilot (or SIC) type ratings to CPL holders any more. Before that, you could fly as co-pilot on multi-crew types with a CPL to gain experience, but this route is blocked now.
So right now, everything that "apruneuk" just told you is true, I'm afraid. Some very sub-standard private operator might let you occupy the right hand seat of his aeroplane as long as you pay for everything yourself. You will put yourself into a corner from which it is very difficult to get out again, because why should any future employer pay you for something, that you did for free for his competition?
And the most important thing to keep in mind: Ninety percent of jobs in the bizjet market are never advertised (my estimate - maybe the real number is more like 99 percent, especially in difficult times). Ususally, you get a job by knowing somebody who knows someone. So rule number one in the bizjet/corporate world has always been: "Never stop networking!"
Keep in touch with your flying instructors (some of them might fly on bizjets beside instructing) and classmates. Exchange business cards with other pilots you chat with in crew rooms, hotel lobbys and during courses that you might take. Call them from time to time or write them an Email to remind them you you. Have you application folder ready all the time, both in printed and electronic form. If a job opportunity comes up, be the first one to submit your application! Keep your flying and procedurals skills up as good as you can, book a session on the FNPT of your flying school every other month, even if you find an hours bulilding job flying VFR on single engine piston aircraft. You will be judged by your IFR flying skills alone.
Good luck,
max
...and have just completed my CPL MEIR...
Without the (frozen) APTL your options will be very, very limited in the bizjet world. There are only a few Part23 jets that can be flown by CPL holders. And again, your competition will be candidates with ATPL, so why should the employer prefer you over more qualified pilots? The CAA might see it different, but since 2008 our authority does not issue Part 25 co-pilot (or SIC) type ratings to CPL holders any more. Before that, you could fly as co-pilot on multi-crew types with a CPL to gain experience, but this route is blocked now.
So right now, everything that "apruneuk" just told you is true, I'm afraid. Some very sub-standard private operator might let you occupy the right hand seat of his aeroplane as long as you pay for everything yourself. You will put yourself into a corner from which it is very difficult to get out again, because why should any future employer pay you for something, that you did for free for his competition?
And the most important thing to keep in mind: Ninety percent of jobs in the bizjet market are never advertised (my estimate - maybe the real number is more like 99 percent, especially in difficult times). Ususally, you get a job by knowing somebody who knows someone. So rule number one in the bizjet/corporate world has always been: "Never stop networking!"
Keep in touch with your flying instructors (some of them might fly on bizjets beside instructing) and classmates. Exchange business cards with other pilots you chat with in crew rooms, hotel lobbys and during courses that you might take. Call them from time to time or write them an Email to remind them you you. Have you application folder ready all the time, both in printed and electronic form. If a job opportunity comes up, be the first one to submit your application! Keep your flying and procedurals skills up as good as you can, book a session on the FNPT of your flying school every other month, even if you find an hours bulilding job flying VFR on single engine piston aircraft. You will be judged by your IFR flying skills alone.
Good luck,
max
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the replies. I just want to point out my wording with regards to rating. I am never going to pay for a type rating this is what has caused most of the problems in the first place within the industry! I meant which aircraft are the most natural progression to flying Biz ie king air, cessan caravan etc so sorry for the confusion. I do have the ATPL theory completed and have tried all of the gliding clubs and drop zone clubs in the UK and have a lead from one but need to get my hours up to 500PIC to fly the C-182 and GA-8 Airvan for them. I will take all the advice posted and really appreciate it and will work my way up either as an FI or doing VFR work as a Jump pilot etc to gain the experience to progress to flying Biz without selling my soul on a type rating scheme!
Thanks
V1
Thanks for all the replies. I just want to point out my wording with regards to rating. I am never going to pay for a type rating this is what has caused most of the problems in the first place within the industry! I meant which aircraft are the most natural progression to flying Biz ie king air, cessan caravan etc so sorry for the confusion. I do have the ATPL theory completed and have tried all of the gliding clubs and drop zone clubs in the UK and have a lead from one but need to get my hours up to 500PIC to fly the C-182 and GA-8 Airvan for them. I will take all the advice posted and really appreciate it and will work my way up either as an FI or doing VFR work as a Jump pilot etc to gain the experience to progress to flying Biz without selling my soul on a type rating scheme!
Thanks
V1
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How to become a corporate pilot? Simple... first become an airline pilot, then get a life!
Seriously, you seem to have the most important stuff figured out. In my company, there always seems to be a dearth of good co-pilots willing to learn the job right and stick around for a couple of year after their TR. Keep at it!
Seriously, you seem to have the most important stuff figured out. In my company, there always seems to be a dearth of good co-pilots willing to learn the job right and stick around for a couple of year after their TR. Keep at it!
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Good morning!
As usual, "good" and "bad", "yes" and "no", "black" and "white" are only different facets of the same thing. And "type rating schemes" as you call them come in such different varieties that turning all of them down right away might not be the best idea. It's nice to have strong principles, but its nicer to have a good job, believe me.
See, I managed not to pay for any type rating myself during my 18 year long flying career (most of it part time beside another job though). But this meant that it took me over 3.000 hours flying SEPs (instructing) and MEPs (commercial, airwork and instructing) until I got the chance to fly turboprops and shortly thereafter jets. Financially, that dosen't make sense at all. None whatsoever. Had I taken a loan 18 years ago, bought myself a type rating and started flying jets right away, I could have earned two or three or four times as much (flying) as I earned doing it my way (*). I didn't care most of the time because I considered my flying as a diversion to a (sometimes) boring office job with some financial compensation - but had I depended on my earnings as pilot, I really would have had harder times than necessary.
So if someone offers you an opportunity to fly jets for the price of sharing the cost of the type rating (either directly or by accepting a lower initial salary for the first two or three years - which is essentially the same!) don't turn it down right away. Think about it and ask yourself if it is really worth to risk your neck flying rotting piston twins for two or three or five or ten years until the next chance comes up (it might never come - I know quite a few colleagues who didn't ever get "rescued" from the piston twins and who never will). It's your life. What I know is that if my son ever decides to be a pilot (I will not encourage him...) I will rather pay him a Citation rating than to watch him die in the wreck of a forty year old Piper Navajo.
Regarding hours building: What jet operators (airline and bizjet) want to see is multi-engine, preferably turboprop, instrument time, preferably in commercial operations. Single engine VFR is not considered "real" flying time. So its useless to waste precious lifetime accumulating single engine hours, apart from the fun of it!
Good luck,
max
(*) Maybe, maybe not - in the end my daily salary flying MEPs (single pilot which is something that I hate, hate, hate and will never do again) was the same as most captains in entry level jets get.
...or doing VFR work as a Jump pilot etc to gain the experience to progress to flying Biz without selling my soul on a type rating scheme!
See, I managed not to pay for any type rating myself during my 18 year long flying career (most of it part time beside another job though). But this meant that it took me over 3.000 hours flying SEPs (instructing) and MEPs (commercial, airwork and instructing) until I got the chance to fly turboprops and shortly thereafter jets. Financially, that dosen't make sense at all. None whatsoever. Had I taken a loan 18 years ago, bought myself a type rating and started flying jets right away, I could have earned two or three or four times as much (flying) as I earned doing it my way (*). I didn't care most of the time because I considered my flying as a diversion to a (sometimes) boring office job with some financial compensation - but had I depended on my earnings as pilot, I really would have had harder times than necessary.
So if someone offers you an opportunity to fly jets for the price of sharing the cost of the type rating (either directly or by accepting a lower initial salary for the first two or three years - which is essentially the same!) don't turn it down right away. Think about it and ask yourself if it is really worth to risk your neck flying rotting piston twins for two or three or five or ten years until the next chance comes up (it might never come - I know quite a few colleagues who didn't ever get "rescued" from the piston twins and who never will). It's your life. What I know is that if my son ever decides to be a pilot (I will not encourage him...) I will rather pay him a Citation rating than to watch him die in the wreck of a forty year old Piper Navajo.
Regarding hours building: What jet operators (airline and bizjet) want to see is multi-engine, preferably turboprop, instrument time, preferably in commercial operations. Single engine VFR is not considered "real" flying time. So its useless to waste precious lifetime accumulating single engine hours, apart from the fun of it!
Good luck,
max
(*) Maybe, maybe not - in the end my daily salary flying MEPs (single pilot which is something that I hate, hate, hate and will never do again) was the same as most captains in entry level jets get.
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I think the thing that most button pushing ex OAA/FTE/Cabair wanabee's don't realise is that with private jets your playing with a whole different level of people to the likes of Ryanair and Eazyjet HR Types - from owners all the way to pilots. Best way to get into the industry is to know someone - simple. You'll meet them around and about at flying clubs, air taxi outfits, etc.
People who own private jets have large pots of money that don't empty themselves very quickly. If they *want* you to fly them around, they'll pay for you to do it. A speculative type rating (in most instances) will get you precisely nowhere, unless you've got some reccomendations or feet in doors. Don't waste your money.
People who own private jets have large pots of money that don't empty themselves very quickly. If they *want* you to fly them around, they'll pay for you to do it. A speculative type rating (in most instances) will get you precisely nowhere, unless you've got some reccomendations or feet in doors. Don't waste your money.
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What next,.....
Wise words but things are very different now 18 years ago, a CPL/IR and a C421 rating where enough to make a good living, ATPL's were for Cathay Pilots.
Divved into Manch on Friday night and it came out in conversation you cant buy AVGAS there any more......
Couple of years ago you could buy a 500 rating at Fsi Atlanta for about 7K GBP I remember thinking that was good value considering how many frames you got. If I got to interview somebody who'd been through the mill at fsi I would begrudgingly probably think it was a good thing.
Thats different from the 737 & Airbus propositions...
I remember offering some similar advice a few years ago to a chap on here called crosswind limits about buying a rating, he's probably in the LHS of an Excel now earning a good living
Wise words but things are very different now 18 years ago, a CPL/IR and a C421 rating where enough to make a good living, ATPL's were for Cathay Pilots.
Divved into Manch on Friday night and it came out in conversation you cant buy AVGAS there any more......
Couple of years ago you could buy a 500 rating at Fsi Atlanta for about 7K GBP I remember thinking that was good value considering how many frames you got. If I got to interview somebody who'd been through the mill at fsi I would begrudgingly probably think it was a good thing.
Thats different from the 737 & Airbus propositions...
I remember offering some similar advice a few years ago to a chap on here called crosswind limits about buying a rating, he's probably in the LHS of an Excel now earning a good living
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Interesting points, and maybe to give V1 some confidence, especially in the current climate.
I went through my training not long before 9/11 and lost my first piston job just after 9/11 because of "the downturn".
I spent a little over a year working in a factory and managed to get back into piston flying.
I was fortunate to be working 900 hours a year and logged about 2000 hours. Getting into the Biz Jets was pretty simple with that experience. Now I have 2 current ratings on my licence and the one I am flying at the moment pays much better than "a good living".
Rather than buying my way in, I put in some very hard work in the beginning. I earnt respect by being the flexible hard working F/O that is so often needed. Since then have operated to hundreds of desinations not only in Europe, but North America, Central America, Africa and the Middle East.
Both type ratings were paid for by operators and I am completely bond free. This gives me an awesome opportunity to take the best offers.
I hope V1 can see that the painstaking labour in the early days really can be worth it.
Incidentally, right now I don't feel it having just got out of bed after a very long night shift
Still, pay day in a few days
V1, good luck.
Any help you want, always feel free to get in touch.
I went through my training not long before 9/11 and lost my first piston job just after 9/11 because of "the downturn".
I spent a little over a year working in a factory and managed to get back into piston flying.
I was fortunate to be working 900 hours a year and logged about 2000 hours. Getting into the Biz Jets was pretty simple with that experience. Now I have 2 current ratings on my licence and the one I am flying at the moment pays much better than "a good living".
Rather than buying my way in, I put in some very hard work in the beginning. I earnt respect by being the flexible hard working F/O that is so often needed. Since then have operated to hundreds of desinations not only in Europe, but North America, Central America, Africa and the Middle East.
Both type ratings were paid for by operators and I am completely bond free. This gives me an awesome opportunity to take the best offers.
I hope V1 can see that the painstaking labour in the early days really can be worth it.
Incidentally, right now I don't feel it having just got out of bed after a very long night shift
Still, pay day in a few days
V1, good luck.
Any help you want, always feel free to get in touch.
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Thanks for the replies everyone it has really helped me understand the system a little more. I have noticed that a lot of companies fly N reg so does it matter which licence you have JAA or FAA or do they normally prefer one over the other?
Thanks
V1
Thanks
V1
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OK i'll admit it, im in Muscat and im bored!!
I wanna be an airline pilot
But there aint no job for me
So ill F**K everyone else
And I’ll go and fly for free
The airlines they aint hiring,
things are looking dire
So I’ll go and fly a bizjet
and set the world on fire
I know a chief pilot
So I asked him for advise
And this is what he told me
Is a lesson in life
He said,
Before you play Bingo
Ya gotta learn the lingo
Before ya get a wife
Get yourself a life
Before ya become the chief
You put up with da grief
Before ya see a map
put up with all the crap
Don’t ever be a fool,
Dont ever be cocky
You gotta be liked
to be a Jet jockey
The man at the top
He might not know ****
But treat him with respect
cause your at the bottom of the pit
And then one day its hits ya,
like a punch in the eye
That the dude at the top
really can fly
You gotta 1000 hours now
you think you’re really hot
we was all there once,
trust us you’re not.
You wanna be a Captain
cause you think its your time
but the chief he wont promote me
so ill join an airline
Welcome to the harsh realities of NOT fitting in.
Good Luck
GW
Love and Peace
Fairways and Greens
I wanna be an airline pilot
But there aint no job for me
So ill F**K everyone else
And I’ll go and fly for free
The airlines they aint hiring,
things are looking dire
So I’ll go and fly a bizjet
and set the world on fire
I know a chief pilot
So I asked him for advise
And this is what he told me
Is a lesson in life
He said,
Before you play Bingo
Ya gotta learn the lingo
Before ya get a wife
Get yourself a life
Before ya become the chief
You put up with da grief
Before ya see a map
put up with all the crap
Don’t ever be a fool,
Dont ever be cocky
You gotta be liked
to be a Jet jockey
The man at the top
He might not know ****
But treat him with respect
cause your at the bottom of the pit
And then one day its hits ya,
like a punch in the eye
That the dude at the top
really can fly
You gotta 1000 hours now
you think you’re really hot
we was all there once,
trust us you’re not.
You wanna be a Captain
cause you think its your time
but the chief he wont promote me
so ill join an airline
Welcome to the harsh realities of NOT fitting in.
Good Luck
GW
Love and Peace
Fairways and Greens
PPRuNe Handmaiden
GW,
Fantastic. Love it.
Fantastic. Love it.
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V1VrV2,
Have you ever thought about the disadvantages of being a corporate pilot?
I'm one of those species. Based abroad, a lot on standby and waiting for a call, getting more and more isolated because you are away from home, away from friends (what's that besides, i hardly see them).Ow yes i"m also single, so even harder to find a girlfriend. And all that for a salary which is not even compensating for all that. One thing for sure, when my bond expires i'm gone.
grtz
Have you ever thought about the disadvantages of being a corporate pilot?
I'm one of those species. Based abroad, a lot on standby and waiting for a call, getting more and more isolated because you are away from home, away from friends (what's that besides, i hardly see them).Ow yes i"m also single, so even harder to find a girlfriend. And all that for a salary which is not even compensating for all that. One thing for sure, when my bond expires i'm gone.
grtz
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Very impressive...Muscat must be pretty dull!
Take all of the advice you are being given...trust me these are wise words!
I worked in operations at my local flying club before I got offered a job flying a Citation. I have to say...those years working there have probably got me further than if I had gone and paid for a nice new 737 or Airbus rating straight off. I met so many interesting and knowledgeable people and learnt a great deal whilst I was there. I also realised that there was a whole lot more to flying than becoming an airline pilot. I have a few instructors who also now fly biz jets to thank for that.
I spent many foggy days in ops sending my CV out to every single company out there. Air taxi and corporate. I was actually asking for advice more than anything when I got a phone call five months after sending the email that got me a job.
It doesn't hurt to spend a bit of time earning peanuts in ops or as an instructor in order to make the contacts and be around people who can put things into perspective. I have to say that these days there are a fair few companies who will ask you to pay for a rating. Some people may not agree but in my view this is ok as long as they are willing to offer you a proper contract and a half decent salary. Do not just go and buy a rating willy nilly!
I'll admit that this is how I secured my first job but I wouldn't have paid for the rating otherwise.
Good luck!
Take all of the advice you are being given...trust me these are wise words!
I worked in operations at my local flying club before I got offered a job flying a Citation. I have to say...those years working there have probably got me further than if I had gone and paid for a nice new 737 or Airbus rating straight off. I met so many interesting and knowledgeable people and learnt a great deal whilst I was there. I also realised that there was a whole lot more to flying than becoming an airline pilot. I have a few instructors who also now fly biz jets to thank for that.
I spent many foggy days in ops sending my CV out to every single company out there. Air taxi and corporate. I was actually asking for advice more than anything when I got a phone call five months after sending the email that got me a job.
It doesn't hurt to spend a bit of time earning peanuts in ops or as an instructor in order to make the contacts and be around people who can put things into perspective. I have to say that these days there are a fair few companies who will ask you to pay for a rating. Some people may not agree but in my view this is ok as long as they are willing to offer you a proper contract and a half decent salary. Do not just go and buy a rating willy nilly!
I'll admit that this is how I secured my first job but I wouldn't have paid for the rating otherwise.
Good luck!