Need help for a ferry from Gatwick to Istanbul
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Need help for a ferry from Gatwick to Istanbul
I am a US based pilot that is about about ferry a Seneca in about a month. The professional ferry pilot will take the airplane across the pond (I am inexperienced and too chicken to make that attempt) but was wondering about the ways to do the ferry.
My planned route is to go down to South France and fly over Italy and Greece to avoid the mountainous region and lower temperatures.. Would like to get some information about the best airports to do the fuel stops (i.e lower AVGAS prices, no handling fees, etc.).
I am also shocked to see the cost of Jeppesen trip kit EU500+ for the trip kit is a bit more expensive that I thought..Any ideas how to get the local AIPs from local sources? Maybe order them online, etc.
Any help would be appreciated..
Thanks..
Seattlepilot
My planned route is to go down to South France and fly over Italy and Greece to avoid the mountainous region and lower temperatures.. Would like to get some information about the best airports to do the fuel stops (i.e lower AVGAS prices, no handling fees, etc.).
I am also shocked to see the cost of Jeppesen trip kit EU500+ for the trip kit is a bit more expensive that I thought..Any ideas how to get the local AIPs from local sources? Maybe order them online, etc.
Any help would be appreciated..
Thanks..
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Usually light aircrafts fly to Canada first then Iceland then into Europe, then Turkey.
Suppose you're departing from Florida, then operate to Gander then Rejkyavik or Keflavik in Iceland then into UK then Turkey.
Whats the max endurance of your aircraft? And are you, and your aircraft ETOPS certified?
Suppose you're departing from Florida, then operate to Gander then Rejkyavik or Keflavik in Iceland then into UK then Turkey.
Whats the max endurance of your aircraft? And are you, and your aircraft ETOPS certified?
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I will take care of the Seattle - Halifax part. The ferry pilot will do Halifax - Gatwick.. My intention is to get help about the Gatwick to Istanbul portion, not the Atlantic Crossing..
Thanks..
Thanks..
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First thing to do is forget about Gatwick - unless you are taking out a mortgage for the landing/handling/parking. Use a smaller airport, especially if you are parking up for more than a tech stop.
IFR charts/plates are expensive over here. You can look up plates on the individual AIPs for each country - see the FAA international flight information manual for useful details about each country. Charts will have to be bought and Jepp are as good as anything.
Make sure you have a laptop - you will need to gather your own weather info and file flight plans (unless you are paying a handling agent). Getting to grips with the Eurocontrol routing computer is a dark art; don't despair if it takes multiple tries.
There is no such thing as "cheap avgas" in europe......
IFR charts/plates are expensive over here. You can look up plates on the individual AIPs for each country - see the FAA international flight information manual for useful details about each country. Charts will have to be bought and Jepp are as good as anything.
Make sure you have a laptop - you will need to gather your own weather info and file flight plans (unless you are paying a handling agent). Getting to grips with the Eurocontrol routing computer is a dark art; don't despair if it takes multiple tries.
There is no such thing as "cheap avgas" in europe......
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Flyingfemme,
thanks for the information.. What airport would you recommend around the area? (the insurance company dictates hard surface, no grass fields are approved) The ferry pilot will have to fly back to States through some london airport as it will be cheaper..
As far flight planning is concerned, any recommendations for the good site?
thanks for the information.. What airport would you recommend around the area? (the insurance company dictates hard surface, no grass fields are approved) The ferry pilot will have to fly back to States through some london airport as it will be cheaper..
As far flight planning is concerned, any recommendations for the good site?
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Hmm,
2 seconds with google earth makes me wonder why you are coming to the UK at all. (apart from our well known hospitality and excellent warm beer. )
From Seattle go north - Canada greenland, dodge iceland if you have the tanks to norway/sweden or denmark then over Poland, The over the corner of ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria.
Probably a thousand N Miles shorter.
You would need to be able to do minimum 1500NM with reserves for Greenland - Norway.
2 seconds with google earth makes me wonder why you are coming to the UK at all. (apart from our well known hospitality and excellent warm beer. )
From Seattle go north - Canada greenland, dodge iceland if you have the tanks to norway/sweden or denmark then over Poland, The over the corner of ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria.
Probably a thousand N Miles shorter.
You would need to be able to do minimum 1500NM with reserves for Greenland - Norway.
Last edited by Daysleeper; 12th Sep 2009 at 17:45.
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Firstly, I second the comment about Gatwick. Expensive doesn't quite do it justice!
If you're flying commercial to London then Gatwick and Heathrow are your main routes - but both are prohibitivly expensive for the usual GA / Light twin budget. For South London, get the ferry pilot to drop it at Biggin Hill - for North London, Denham or Elstree would probably be a better option. Biggin will still have a handling and parking surcharge so if your wanting to leave it for any length of time before you pick it up then Denham, Elstree or Redhill would probably give better parking rates.
If you are tanking, then (obviously) remember your 337 - your ferry pilot will be able to determine the best route over the Ocean, but I think that Goose / Greenland / Iceland / Scotland is a better, safer option. Where you have the tank removed on this side of the Atlantic may also enter into the routing equation.
During winter months, the option of routing Norway/Sweden as previously suggested may give you longer delays with the weather. Your choice of routing through France down to Cannes the across Northern Italy VFR would be one way to go with the warm weather. If you are venturing anywhere near Italy, make sure that wherever you route - double check then tripple check the quadrouple check that they have Avgas available, then plan your route carefully so that you can you always get out of wherever promised you they had it then wasn't able to give you any when you arrived. Lots of places in Europe are 'cash' only - so make sure you have a fair supply of the folding stuff!
If you are IFR then there are several airways routes available.
If I can help or advise any further, then PM me.
DD
If you're flying commercial to London then Gatwick and Heathrow are your main routes - but both are prohibitivly expensive for the usual GA / Light twin budget. For South London, get the ferry pilot to drop it at Biggin Hill - for North London, Denham or Elstree would probably be a better option. Biggin will still have a handling and parking surcharge so if your wanting to leave it for any length of time before you pick it up then Denham, Elstree or Redhill would probably give better parking rates.
If you are tanking, then (obviously) remember your 337 - your ferry pilot will be able to determine the best route over the Ocean, but I think that Goose / Greenland / Iceland / Scotland is a better, safer option. Where you have the tank removed on this side of the Atlantic may also enter into the routing equation.
During winter months, the option of routing Norway/Sweden as previously suggested may give you longer delays with the weather. Your choice of routing through France down to Cannes the across Northern Italy VFR would be one way to go with the warm weather. If you are venturing anywhere near Italy, make sure that wherever you route - double check then tripple check the quadrouple check that they have Avgas available, then plan your route carefully so that you can you always get out of wherever promised you they had it then wasn't able to give you any when you arrived. Lots of places in Europe are 'cash' only - so make sure you have a fair supply of the folding stuff!
If you are IFR then there are several airways routes available.
If I can help or advise any further, then PM me.
DD
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A fair few a/c making the trip across the pond come through Jersey in the Channel Islands generally direct from Reykjavik. Although a few months back there were a couple of single engine cessna's that came from Goose Bay direct, took them 18hrs or so. The runway is 1706m and grooved asphalt, ILS and full ATC also cheaper Avgas than most of Europe and UK as not in EU. Good links to Gatwick airport as well with Flybe and BA. If you want to look it up 4 letter ICAO is EGJJ. Just checked and current price for avgas is £1.06/litre (£1.007/litre if AOPA card holder).
Last edited by OA32; 12th Sep 2009 at 21:41. Reason: updated info
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Then there are alot of dense ferry pilots out there.....and I wasn't suggesting stops in ALL locations....
Why is it that when someone suggests something different to....oh forget it....I really can't be bothered.
Why is it that when someone suggests something different to....oh forget it....I really can't be bothered.
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Biggin will still have a handling and parking surcharge so if your wanting to leave it for any length of time before you pick it up then Denham, Elstree or Redhill would probably give better parking rates.
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Just delivering the Seneca or stopping & smelling the roses?
Hi Seattlepilot, long reply for you...
As always, your mission should drive the planning. Are you doing this GA flying to Istanbul solely for business (ferry)?
Obviously, safety & wx is your first consideration, after that:
If this is more of a pleasure flight then your planning priority should be to avoid potential headaches (logistics/$$/navigation...), especially if you have little experience with the Old World & EuroControl.
If you just need to move the airplane to Istanbul and could care less about stopping & smelling the roses, then plan to minimize time/distance/cost & "just get her done"--there are plenty of well-worn routes, and proven methods.
Does your trans-Atlantic "professional ferry pilot" know Gatwick is NOT your final destination? If he knew, it is shocking that he did not immediately advise against going there
. I echo the opinion shared by many in these posts: Gatwick is a rediculous waste of your $/time. Plus, for a Yank, adjusting to Gatwick first time (IMC???) will be more challenging than SeaTac.
Next, I will bash you, with good intentions of course
. If you are already paying a ferry pilot, why not keep him all the way to Istanbul? Many guys would do it for a flat fee. Ending up in UK vs. Turkey the incremental cost for you is relatively small. Maybe you want some freedom while in Europe, or just wish to maximize profit? I don't know but you seem to indicate not having Euro experience (planning, wx, re-routing...it just isn't USA). So, having a good ferry pilot with you until Istanbul may save you lots of headaches, not to mention $. Going one route vs. another, or even into a different airport could eat up all the profit that you think you will save (diff in fees/handling/hotel...). Finally, it is much safer for you to have two sets of eyes in unfamiliar ops.
When I took a Seneca II un-tanked, I went via CYFB. You did not mention which model Seneca you are taking, but since you will go via Halifax, will it be tanked? (C-N asked for "max endurance of your aircraft" You should post & let us know because it affects your ops in Europe too...that way you can receive relevant advice.) If you are hard-headed & insist on dumping your ferry pilot after his Atlantic crossing, why not consider taking over in Ireland or Scotland? It is very pleasant flying for you from either area. There are good airline connections & you can avoid London airspace entirely
.
Anyway, just a few general comments:
- Some replies obviously came from folks who had flown in parts of your route: i.e. there are VAST areas where avgas is NOT available; unlike what we are used to in the US. Even when an airport is published as having avgas, it doesn't hurt to call ahead to confirm availability.
- Since you are ferrying a Seneca & talking about Jepp trip kit, I expect you are IFR rated. If not I would ax the idea of doing this VFR--solo & unfamiliar, no need to take a chance with airspace, regs, etc. Especially if you hesitate about buying charts.
- You should get good enroute low charts. You need it for route planning & likely inflight re-routes (to-what-intersection? say-again? ain't-got-that-in-my-Garmin? oh-that's-how-you-spell-it...f***-where-is-he-taking-me). Fun.
- Unless the Atlantic crossing goes south via Santa Maria, Iceland is a perfectly good stop. This is true even if you don't like girls! Now that it is cheaper (since bankrupcy) it is also a sound financial decision. Greenland and Norway are expensive--give them a call.
- Plan which countries you will over-fly, this is not complicated. But a quick glance at those posted show at least one requiring pre-arranged permission. It matters also if you have a ferry tank.
- Start this ferry as soon as you could if the airplane is ready. Try not to wait around for 1 month; freezing levels will only get lower; you may have a higher probability of paying the ferry pilot for wx delays (+food +hotel, etc.).
You received some good replies here, pm me if you need any clarification.
As always, your mission should drive the planning. Are you doing this GA flying to Istanbul solely for business (ferry)?
Obviously, safety & wx is your first consideration, after that:
If this is more of a pleasure flight then your planning priority should be to avoid potential headaches (logistics/$$/navigation...), especially if you have little experience with the Old World & EuroControl.
If you just need to move the airplane to Istanbul and could care less about stopping & smelling the roses, then plan to minimize time/distance/cost & "just get her done"--there are plenty of well-worn routes, and proven methods.
Does your trans-Atlantic "professional ferry pilot" know Gatwick is NOT your final destination? If he knew, it is shocking that he did not immediately advise against going there
. I echo the opinion shared by many in these posts: Gatwick is a rediculous waste of your $/time. Plus, for a Yank, adjusting to Gatwick first time (IMC???) will be more challenging than SeaTac.Next, I will bash you, with good intentions of course
. If you are already paying a ferry pilot, why not keep him all the way to Istanbul? Many guys would do it for a flat fee. Ending up in UK vs. Turkey the incremental cost for you is relatively small. Maybe you want some freedom while in Europe, or just wish to maximize profit? I don't know but you seem to indicate not having Euro experience (planning, wx, re-routing...it just isn't USA). So, having a good ferry pilot with you until Istanbul may save you lots of headaches, not to mention $. Going one route vs. another, or even into a different airport could eat up all the profit that you think you will save (diff in fees/handling/hotel...). Finally, it is much safer for you to have two sets of eyes in unfamiliar ops.When I took a Seneca II un-tanked, I went via CYFB. You did not mention which model Seneca you are taking, but since you will go via Halifax, will it be tanked? (C-N asked for "max endurance of your aircraft" You should post & let us know because it affects your ops in Europe too...that way you can receive relevant advice.) If you are hard-headed & insist on dumping your ferry pilot after his Atlantic crossing, why not consider taking over in Ireland or Scotland? It is very pleasant flying for you from either area. There are good airline connections & you can avoid London airspace entirely
.Anyway, just a few general comments:
- Some replies obviously came from folks who had flown in parts of your route: i.e. there are VAST areas where avgas is NOT available; unlike what we are used to in the US. Even when an airport is published as having avgas, it doesn't hurt to call ahead to confirm availability.
- Since you are ferrying a Seneca & talking about Jepp trip kit, I expect you are IFR rated. If not I would ax the idea of doing this VFR--solo & unfamiliar, no need to take a chance with airspace, regs, etc. Especially if you hesitate about buying charts.
- You should get good enroute low charts. You need it for route planning & likely inflight re-routes (to-what-intersection? say-again? ain't-got-that-in-my-Garmin? oh-that's-how-you-spell-it...f***-where-is-he-taking-me). Fun.
- Unless the Atlantic crossing goes south via Santa Maria, Iceland is a perfectly good stop. This is true even if you don't like girls! Now that it is cheaper (since bankrupcy) it is also a sound financial decision. Greenland and Norway are expensive--give them a call.
- Plan which countries you will over-fly, this is not complicated. But a quick glance at those posted show at least one requiring pre-arranged permission. It matters also if you have a ferry tank.
- Start this ferry as soon as you could if the airplane is ready. Try not to wait around for 1 month; freezing levels will only get lower; you may have a higher probability of paying the ferry pilot for wx delays (+food +hotel, etc.).
You received some good replies here, pm me if you need any clarification.
Why would you use Gatwick (or any of the London airports for that matter) for your crew change point? There are heaps of airports in the UK with either an air or nearby rail connection to an international airport. Use one of those instead. Of course you have to get there too but even so...
Wick is used to dealing with ferry flights and has air links. Sumburgh & Kirkwall have air links to the mainland if you want to have a jolly in Shetland &/or Orkney, respectively, on the way.
Wick is used to dealing with ferry flights and has air links. Sumburgh & Kirkwall have air links to the mainland if you want to have a jolly in Shetland &/or Orkney, respectively, on the way.
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Need help for a ferry from Gatwick to Istanbul
Tanking is an expensive option for no good reason unless its a commercial delivery. If its your own aircraft then save money and route further north. Iqaluit to Sondrestrom is well within range and there are alternate options although Sondrestrom goes down to minimums probably once a year. Weather dependant it would be either keflavik/reyjkavik kulusuk then Faro/Germany/Poland/Cheq Rep/Bulgaria and Turkey. No Eurocontrol charges in the airways either for seneca. Also save money by not needing to route to maine to have a HF wire/radio fitted which is required out of Gander. You will most certainly need to budget for pre heat and de icing in the coming weeks. If you need any help with charts, routing etc, let me know. You can have any information I have for free so no need to purchase any charts.
