News about Netjets Europe
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News about Netjets Europe
So what's going on at Netjets? does it look a bit better for the summer season, or do you think the company will need to sack further pilots soon?
I guess that when the economy gets better then Netjets will have all their planes back in the sky, but I am not an economist.
I guess that when the economy gets better then Netjets will have all their planes back in the sky, but I am not an economist.
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They did NOT sack anybody so far! They will be offering part time, unpaid leave, or the possibilty to leave without having to pay back your bond. If this is not sufficient to reduce crews, they will sack pilots, I am afraid.
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the bookkeeper is probably (hopefully not) right on the sacking part but that's a little way off yet. The packages being offered are pretty good I hear. Just depends upon what, if any, strings are attached and of course how many takers there are.
Ex-military pilots and others on pensions must be seriously tempted, especially by the voluntary redundancy deal of 10 months salary plus 4 months per year of service to a maximum of two years. Redundancy money (in the UK at least) is tax free so you could live for longer than two years on that especially if you had a pension too. Anyone wanting to work would be back flying before long anyway, there are certainly signs of improvement out there.
As for the other deals such as temporary part-time, job-sharing, leave of absence and long-term leave of absence there might not be as many takers but some of those may suit a few people. I'd like to think that if they got (say) 250 volunteers by the mid-July deadline the company would do the decent thing and keep the rest on. A lot easier to carry 50 extra pilots than 300 and there must be some improvement expected if they're still recruiting sales reps still, no?
As a matter of interest have there been any cutbacks on the management side of things?
Ex-military pilots and others on pensions must be seriously tempted, especially by the voluntary redundancy deal of 10 months salary plus 4 months per year of service to a maximum of two years. Redundancy money (in the UK at least) is tax free so you could live for longer than two years on that especially if you had a pension too. Anyone wanting to work would be back flying before long anyway, there are certainly signs of improvement out there.
As for the other deals such as temporary part-time, job-sharing, leave of absence and long-term leave of absence there might not be as many takers but some of those may suit a few people. I'd like to think that if they got (say) 250 volunteers by the mid-July deadline the company would do the decent thing and keep the rest on. A lot easier to carry 50 extra pilots than 300 and there must be some improvement expected if they're still recruiting sales reps still, no?
As a matter of interest have there been any cutbacks on the management side of things?
Last edited by Flintstone; 28th May 2009 at 22:45.
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Flinty,
I must correct you here about the tax on redundancy payments.
Only the first £30,000 of the payout is tax free in the UK, after that its taxed in the normal way..............Therefore care is needed when sizing up the options about whether to take a package and go or not.
I took a great payout when a major motor company shut down its European flight department in 2006 BUT I lost about £50k in tax on the deal
I must correct you here about the tax on redundancy payments.
Only the first £30,000 of the payout is tax free in the UK, after that its taxed in the normal way..............Therefore care is needed when sizing up the options about whether to take a package and go or not.
I took a great payout when a major motor company shut down its European flight department in 2006 BUT I lost about £50k in tax on the deal
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They are still intervewing for UK and Europen Sales VPs - Basic £60k- £70K with an OTE of £100K + so it can't be all bad.
was told they will be taking on over 25 people all over Europe as sales VPs
was told they will be taking on over 25 people all over Europe as sales VPs
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The BIG problem, from what I understand, is that nobody is safe from redundancy. Doesn't matter how long you have been in the company, what fleet you are in or how good your employment record is. From number 1000 to number 1.Nobody!
Unless management of course. (i imagine)
Unless management of course. (i imagine)
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StressFree.
Thanks for the correction, I just found that part out elsewhere too. Bloody gub'mint.
How about recruiting crew as sales reps? Oh, no. Hang on. That would never work because the crew would tell the potential customers the truth about range, load etc. How many times have you had to explain to a new owner that their aircraft does have xxxxnm range, it will seat xx people and it will cruise at xxxkts but not all at the same time.
Sales reps, estate agents and lawyers
Thanks for the correction, I just found that part out elsewhere too. Bloody gub'mint.
How about recruiting crew as sales reps? Oh, no. Hang on. That would never work because the crew would tell the potential customers the truth about range, load etc. How many times have you had to explain to a new owner that their aircraft does have xxxxnm range, it will seat xx people and it will cruise at xxxkts but not all at the same time.
Sales reps, estate agents and lawyers
Last edited by Flintstone; 29th May 2009 at 22:14.
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Here we bloody well go again, redundancy number 4 looms. To be fair they are trying to avoid the compulsory route but this is getting ridiculous. I'd be tempted to go the part time route myself as I can't live on no salary and there are precious few jobs out there with lots of highly qualified and current applicants. If it does come to the crunch and I sincerely hope it doesn't, the indications are that LIFO will apply. I thought that particular bit of misery was illegal now. A word of warning to those who are sitting pretty at the top end of the list, seniority didn't protect me after 9/11, assume nothing.
From a cost saving point of view, I don't see how sacking pilot x and then spending time and money training pilot y to take over his or her role saves anything. The busy fleets are the larger ones, with longer and more expensive training courses but then what do I know, I just drive the things.The logical route would be to concentrate on the fleets that are parked up doing nothing (no disrespect to those crews), that's what happened to me post 9/11 but if all the profit comes from sales then I guess other rules apply.
Best of luck to all, its a rotten thing to go through. If I get canned again at my age I reckon that's the end of my flying "career". Lets hope things continue to improve the way they have (slowly) been over the last months.
Yours in despair.
From a cost saving point of view, I don't see how sacking pilot x and then spending time and money training pilot y to take over his or her role saves anything. The busy fleets are the larger ones, with longer and more expensive training courses but then what do I know, I just drive the things.The logical route would be to concentrate on the fleets that are parked up doing nothing (no disrespect to those crews), that's what happened to me post 9/11 but if all the profit comes from sales then I guess other rules apply.
Best of luck to all, its a rotten thing to go through. If I get canned again at my age I reckon that's the end of my flying "career". Lets hope things continue to improve the way they have (slowly) been over the last months.
Yours in despair.
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It would seem logical to start cutting with those fleets that are 'parked-up' and not flying much.
However, all may not be as it seems on the surface.
If the the 'upgrades' were to stop I have heard from people on GRT recently that the flying would be more or less equal across the small and midsize fleets.
So, I think it would be slightly unfair to concentrate on the small fleets because it is through no fault of their own that those crews have less flying.
Secondly, what about people who upgraded from large cabins on to the small fleets and have good seniority, should they go before someone who is less senior but on a mid or large size cabin?
I dont the have answers, but with with my limited capacity, LIFO seems the fairest and most transparent way to do things.
However, all may not be as it seems on the surface.
If the the 'upgrades' were to stop I have heard from people on GRT recently that the flying would be more or less equal across the small and midsize fleets.
So, I think it would be slightly unfair to concentrate on the small fleets because it is through no fault of their own that those crews have less flying.
Secondly, what about people who upgraded from large cabins on to the small fleets and have good seniority, should they go before someone who is less senior but on a mid or large size cabin?
I dont the have answers, but with with my limited capacity, LIFO seems the fairest and most transparent way to do things.
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I agree south coast, but talking to a friend who works in HR, LIFO (in the UK at least ) is illegal. It can be used as a deciding factor after other things are taken into account but on its own it is subject to legal challenge.Not sure what the situation is in Portugal. Personally I fully expect to be down the road by August, but then I do have previous form in this area and life has turned me into a pessimist.
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NJE does not have a classic age pyramid. The young ones are not the most junior and vice versa so saying that LIFO is discriminatory would not be true.
As for getting rid of small fleet pilots, I really see that as even more unfair that the above. The guy joins on the 400 years ago (3 to 5 years), does a good job, gets promoted, does a better job, becomes a line trainer (and frozen on type for a bit longer), his pal on the other hand joins with 1500 hours joins on the GV only 4 months ago. Never gets the chance to prove his commitment to the operation, his qualities or whatever else but hey, gets a GV on his licence as opposed to one of the most useless type rating in the industry (apologies to my 400 colleagues).
So I would say that in this particular case and since NJE has very little ways to reward seniority, some recognition through LIFO would help. Also the more employable guys would be the guy with a GV rating rather than the 400 guy so again, I see here some logic.
There is no nice way to go about and if I am in none of the above cases, I really do hope things improve enough so we only have to go through that briefly before reversing the process so we can all go back to our day to day business of flying jets around the world, with great colleagues.
Take care all
As for getting rid of small fleet pilots, I really see that as even more unfair that the above. The guy joins on the 400 years ago (3 to 5 years), does a good job, gets promoted, does a better job, becomes a line trainer (and frozen on type for a bit longer), his pal on the other hand joins with 1500 hours joins on the GV only 4 months ago. Never gets the chance to prove his commitment to the operation, his qualities or whatever else but hey, gets a GV on his licence as opposed to one of the most useless type rating in the industry (apologies to my 400 colleagues).
So I would say that in this particular case and since NJE has very little ways to reward seniority, some recognition through LIFO would help. Also the more employable guys would be the guy with a GV rating rather than the 400 guy so again, I see here some logic.
There is no nice way to go about and if I am in none of the above cases, I really do hope things improve enough so we only have to go through that briefly before reversing the process so we can all go back to our day to day business of flying jets around the world, with great colleagues.
Take care all
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Seniority
How seniority is illegal is a mystery to me. It goes all the way up to the point that a company faces the serious threat of going out of business. AMEX's arguments are quite right.
For those who have not caught on yet: the upgrading of owners has virtually come to a halt and flight volumes are distributed fairly evenly nowadays. Not many happy faces amongst Falcon owners when seeing their aircraft being used by a Cessna man for half price. Initially a good move, it back-fired after word got out.
Selecting anything other than seniority as a criterium for compulsary redundancies needs some strong convincing arguments in a court. The 'indoc-luck' factor hardly constitutes as such an argument. Don't keep your hopes up just because you can take a piss standing up straight mate. By your logic the 900 and GIV guys would get laid of first. Now does that still sound reasonable?
For those who have not caught on yet: the upgrading of owners has virtually come to a halt and flight volumes are distributed fairly evenly nowadays. Not many happy faces amongst Falcon owners when seeing their aircraft being used by a Cessna man for half price. Initially a good move, it back-fired after word got out.
Selecting anything other than seniority as a criterium for compulsary redundancies needs some strong convincing arguments in a court. The 'indoc-luck' factor hardly constitutes as such an argument. Don't keep your hopes up just because you can take a piss standing up straight mate. By your logic the 900 and GIV guys would get laid of first. Now does that still sound reasonable?
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By your logic the 900 and GIV guys would get laid of first. Now does that still sound reasonable?
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I was right....i did wrong
Ehi guys, remember me? you were sort of joking about me being undecided to come or not come into NJE in november 2008, some of you also said "give us a break", well, i am the 4 digits seniority list number now and i am on the go probably, after the company told me "come now, you are needed, dont run away" when i asked them.
Pretty precious piece of advice yes!
D
Pretty precious piece of advice yes!
D
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"Also the more employable guys would be the guy with a GV rating"
You have got to be kidding my friend. Have you had a trawl through the recruitment agency sites?, I have . There is nothing out there unless you are type rated and current on the A320 /B777/B747 and are willing to move to Vietnam. I happen to be rated on the 747 but no longer current, the reply? not interested. There are a hell of a lot of qualified people out there chasing very few jobs. The GV rating is as useful as a chocolate teapot at the current time.
Suitcase man has it right. Seniority means nothing as in zip if the company decide to do it any other way. I was in exactly the same situation several years back. As for seniority, its never done me any favours. Didn't protect me when I had it and kept me back when I didn't. As I'll be hurled through the doors quicker than hot snot in August, please don't come the "its the only fair way" with me. Its bullsh@T and aviation is the only industry where "buggin's turn" is still seen as the way forward.
Bitter? me? you f*****g well bet I am.
You have got to be kidding my friend. Have you had a trawl through the recruitment agency sites?, I have . There is nothing out there unless you are type rated and current on the A320 /B777/B747 and are willing to move to Vietnam. I happen to be rated on the 747 but no longer current, the reply? not interested. There are a hell of a lot of qualified people out there chasing very few jobs. The GV rating is as useful as a chocolate teapot at the current time.
Suitcase man has it right. Seniority means nothing as in zip if the company decide to do it any other way. I was in exactly the same situation several years back. As for seniority, its never done me any favours. Didn't protect me when I had it and kept me back when I didn't. As I'll be hurled through the doors quicker than hot snot in August, please don't come the "its the only fair way" with me. Its bullsh@T and aviation is the only industry where "buggin's turn" is still seen as the way forward.
Bitter? me? you f*****g well bet I am.
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Having never experienced redundacies before, I would feel wrong to say I understand how it must feel to be made redundant.
So a question to Northern Boy since you have experienced it on a couple of occassions, who and how would you cut the required number of positions?
This is not meant with a negative tone, but a genuine question.
So a question to Northern Boy since you have experienced it on a couple of occassions, who and how would you cut the required number of positions?
This is not meant with a negative tone, but a genuine question.
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Hi all
I´m a bit curious how LIFO can be illegal. In Sweden it is quite the opposite. Anything but LIFO would create a reasonable court case... Having been redundant a couple of times I would haved been pissed off if someone hired after me could stay and I could not!
It sucks to be redundant but it is hardly new to the industry. At least we are getting offers to consider instead of the boot. I will for sure go for an option thet leaves me in the company in the long run.
F/O on one of "the useless A/C" with carrer nr +800
Bitter? No not yet!
I´m a bit curious how LIFO can be illegal. In Sweden it is quite the opposite. Anything but LIFO would create a reasonable court case... Having been redundant a couple of times I would haved been pissed off if someone hired after me could stay and I could not!
It sucks to be redundant but it is hardly new to the industry. At least we are getting offers to consider instead of the boot. I will for sure go for an option thet leaves me in the company in the long run.
F/O on one of "the useless A/C" with carrer nr +800
Bitter? No not yet!
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Southcoast,
If I was running a business with different departments and for whatever reason one of the departments became surplus to requirements, then I would cut that department. Sorry, tough times, try to find you something else but at the end of the day that's life. I would not start getting rid of people from other departments then spend time and money training people up who happened to join at the right time and who at the end of the day may not even want to change.
If you really think that airlines are any different then you are sadly mistaken, as I have found to my cost in the past. The LIFO system is a hangover from the days when airlines were union dominated and they insisted on it.Yes it does benefit those with years of service but the whole seniority system is open to abuse (I've seen it) unless applied with utter impartiality. It also has the effect of protecting "dead wood" in some cases (no suggestion that is the case here before you jump down my throat).
There is no way to do this nicely, its like a divorce. The best thing is to minimise the financial pain and be as quick as possible.
If you are so happy with the proposals and are willing to cut your salary and or career to assist your fellows who had the good fortune to join before you did, then you are selfless and an example to us all. Me, I want to pay the bills and feed the kids. Anyone else has my sympathy and nothing else.
Tough old world yes? After I loose my job I'm sure everyone will feel incredibly sorry for about 5 minutes whilst breathing a sigh of relief that it wasn't them.
I will now get flamed and abused by everyone and his dog. I don't care guys, I am only interested in protecting myself and my family. If you are honest with yourselves, so are you.
If I was running a business with different departments and for whatever reason one of the departments became surplus to requirements, then I would cut that department. Sorry, tough times, try to find you something else but at the end of the day that's life. I would not start getting rid of people from other departments then spend time and money training people up who happened to join at the right time and who at the end of the day may not even want to change.
If you really think that airlines are any different then you are sadly mistaken, as I have found to my cost in the past. The LIFO system is a hangover from the days when airlines were union dominated and they insisted on it.Yes it does benefit those with years of service but the whole seniority system is open to abuse (I've seen it) unless applied with utter impartiality. It also has the effect of protecting "dead wood" in some cases (no suggestion that is the case here before you jump down my throat).
There is no way to do this nicely, its like a divorce. The best thing is to minimise the financial pain and be as quick as possible.
If you are so happy with the proposals and are willing to cut your salary and or career to assist your fellows who had the good fortune to join before you did, then you are selfless and an example to us all. Me, I want to pay the bills and feed the kids. Anyone else has my sympathy and nothing else.
Tough old world yes? After I loose my job I'm sure everyone will feel incredibly sorry for about 5 minutes whilst breathing a sigh of relief that it wasn't them.
I will now get flamed and abused by everyone and his dog. I don't care guys, I am only interested in protecting myself and my family. If you are honest with yourselves, so are you.