Self sponsored Type Rating and job offers
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Self sponsored Type Rating and job offers
I was kindly invited me to start a new thread since a recent post of mine was not in the appropriate thread. I was explaining why today I am considering paying for a type rating against all those who thinks I would ruin the industry by lowering our standards. It's long time I'm considering posting this very personal point of view as it could raise a lot of criticisms... please be kind enough to respect it if you don't agree.
Here it is:
I disagree with this. During the past 20 years all the pilots sitting in warm places didn't do anything to prevent the erosion of hiring conditions for younger pilots. I personally don't think I'd win anything by sitting on my ass waiting for an opportunity to come and I'll do all what is required to upgrade, including paying a type rating with the money I've earned while I was being grounded because employers were not considering non-rated guys. This doesn't mean I'm gonna discount my wages or whatever. Like most of us I want a decent family life without giving up on my career because I'm not competitive with you. I have 11 years of experience behind me and I'm tired to hear this isn't enough to get a job. In fact experience doesn't really matter, it's all about costs (type rating, insurance etc.). This means I'll help myself as I don't expect anybody to do anything for me.
During the past years everybody was lying about pilot shortage, promoting cadetships and MPL because this is what saves money and headaches to the airlines. I don't remember reading lots of colleagues warning about how this could spoil pilots working conditions.
For years employers played creating competition schemes between wannabees and very few of the experienced guys tried to act against it, simply because they didn't feel concerned.
I'm really sorry but I don't think that asking me to wait is legitimate. It's a year and a half I'm on the ground because I followed your advice and didn't pay for a type rating. With all due respect, today I am concerned about my own situation and if the current market is in favor of employers I'll cope with it.
Here it is:
And don't offer to bring the type rating yourself! This only results in lower wages for all of us and ridiculous offers by employers, agencies and the like.
During the past years everybody was lying about pilot shortage, promoting cadetships and MPL because this is what saves money and headaches to the airlines. I don't remember reading lots of colleagues warning about how this could spoil pilots working conditions.
For years employers played creating competition schemes between wannabees and very few of the experienced guys tried to act against it, simply because they didn't feel concerned.
I'm really sorry but I don't think that asking me to wait is legitimate. It's a year and a half I'm on the ground because I followed your advice and didn't pay for a type rating. With all due respect, today I am concerned about my own situation and if the current market is in favor of employers I'll cope with it.
Last edited by S.F.L.Y; 24th May 2009 at 17:37.
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Self Rating
True to both of you guys ... but I have been in this market for a long time and let me tell you ... the pricipals had enough with guys running away after getting the rating from his pocket ...
Don't judge, cause some times you get a F*&$#
as a boss or the middle management ruins the job, but it is definetly not fair for the owner of a multimillio dollar plane to pay for every single I*&%# that whants a type rating and never gives back with some decent working time ...
Having said that I rather employ a green guy that I can help get up to speed that some know-it-all with a ton of hours and a Space Shuttle attitude ..
My penny's worth ..
Keep it safe ...
Pilocol
Don't judge, cause some times you get a F*&$#
as a boss or the middle management ruins the job, but it is definetly not fair for the owner of a multimillio dollar plane to pay for every single I*&%# that whants a type rating and never gives back with some decent working time ...Having said that I rather employ a green guy that I can help get up to speed that some know-it-all with a ton of hours and a Space Shuttle attitude ..
My penny's worth ..
Keep it safe ...
Pilocol
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I agree, its not all bad. I saved and paid for my own type rating, but with no offer of a job and have found one huge advantage, if i get treated like **** I walk. I don't owe anybody anything. Those who get a rating paid for and then walk do a lot more damage to the "pilot name" than those who join companies already rated. Furthermore, most employers don't ask how you got rated, or whether you paid for it your self, they just want to see the license with the required rating on it. It is HIGHLY unlikely that an employer these days is going to take someone off the street and type him, when he is sure to get 100 resumes from typed guys.
What I do not entirely agree with is someone who goes to an interview and offers to pay for his own rating, but at the end of the day, its always going to happen.
What I do not entirely agree with is someone who goes to an interview and offers to pay for his own rating, but at the end of the day, its always going to happen.
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Please hand me my tear amphore...
These poor people, bought themselves a decent airplane and now these lousy pilots want to fly AND make a penny. Oh dear oh dear.
Now seriously, there have been some guys that were like that. But ask yourself, which job do I walk from? I personally won´t leave a good job.
I was offered 1500€/month more on a better aircraft and I stayed since I felt being obliged. Because the job is good and they were always fair.
I walked from a job where I was lied at and forced to do things I didn´t want to do. I warned them several times. They did not change their ways, so I decided to walk. I won´t go further into detail.
So there is 2 sides to that. IF a job is paid so well that a rating is easily paid off it, good. But why should I as the way weaker link in that chain take the risk? What if the guy sells the airplane 4 weeks after I did the rating? What if the airplane is not delivered and you paid your FSI course but are empty handed because you have no landings? (Happened to a guy a know just a few weeks ago)
The cost of typeratings are part of operating costs for an owner IMO. I´m happy to be bonded for a year, with prorata payback, but nothing more.
And be sure they fire you as quick as the nonpaying guy if they have to.
I alreadfy forked out a lot for my ATP. Thats enough.
Said owners have no trouble in training their secretary when she has to deal with a new software, why the **** should I pay for my training???
These poor people, bought themselves a decent airplane and now these lousy pilots want to fly AND make a penny. Oh dear oh dear.
Now seriously, there have been some guys that were like that. But ask yourself, which job do I walk from? I personally won´t leave a good job.
I was offered 1500€/month more on a better aircraft and I stayed since I felt being obliged. Because the job is good and they were always fair.
I walked from a job where I was lied at and forced to do things I didn´t want to do. I warned them several times. They did not change their ways, so I decided to walk. I won´t go further into detail.
So there is 2 sides to that. IF a job is paid so well that a rating is easily paid off it, good. But why should I as the way weaker link in that chain take the risk? What if the guy sells the airplane 4 weeks after I did the rating? What if the airplane is not delivered and you paid your FSI course but are empty handed because you have no landings? (Happened to a guy a know just a few weeks ago)
The cost of typeratings are part of operating costs for an owner IMO. I´m happy to be bonded for a year, with prorata payback, but nothing more.
And be sure they fire you as quick as the nonpaying guy if they have to.
I alreadfy forked out a lot for my ATP. Thats enough.
Said owners have no trouble in training their secretary when she has to deal with a new software, why the **** should I pay for my training???
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Depends where you think the line should be drawn. Most of the pilots in civilian aviation pay for their licence, IR, MCC, twin rating, instructor rating, etc., etc. Where does it stop? Some airlines require hideous bank guarantees for a TR.
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Dear Dudeness,
I think you are mixing up corporate flight departments and managing operators. In most cases owners don't even have a clue of the operational problems you might be facing and if an operator is lying to you it's often because they need to do so to suck more money from their client (the owner...).
I agree that TR should be part of the operating costs. Thinking that way didn't help me to get a job and since the market as changed I decided to reconsider my point of view. Fair or unfair that's not the question. Think about what you would ask if owners were struggling to get a decent pilot. Anyway when an operator is paying for it you generally must stay within the company for some time or pay back every month. In the end you are paying for it...
What B200Drvr said is also true, when you paid for your TR you're free to leave, this is why I prefer to pay on my own instead of owing a favor to my employer.
I think you are mixing up corporate flight departments and managing operators. In most cases owners don't even have a clue of the operational problems you might be facing and if an operator is lying to you it's often because they need to do so to suck more money from their client (the owner...).
I agree that TR should be part of the operating costs. Thinking that way didn't help me to get a job and since the market as changed I decided to reconsider my point of view. Fair or unfair that's not the question. Think about what you would ask if owners were struggling to get a decent pilot. Anyway when an operator is paying for it you generally must stay within the company for some time or pay back every month. In the end you are paying for it...
What B200Drvr said is also true, when you paid for your TR you're free to leave, this is why I prefer to pay on my own instead of owing a favor to my employer.
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S.F.L.Y.
I am sure many, myself included would be very interested to learn how you get on as you have obviously decided in your own way what you are doing.
Please let us know what aircraft, how much, and where that leads you....
Personally I don't think very far as a rating without experience is not at all desirable. Don't forget there are many many pilots out there right now with ratings and experience who also cannot find work!
It's just really sh1tty times.
I am sure many, myself included would be very interested to learn how you get on as you have obviously decided in your own way what you are doing.
Please let us know what aircraft, how much, and where that leads you....
Personally I don't think very far as a rating without experience is not at all desirable. Don't forget there are many many pilots out there right now with ratings and experience who also cannot find work!
It's just really sh1tty times.
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Originally Posted by S.F.L.Y
when an operator is paying for it you generally must stay within the company for some time or pay back every month. In the end you are paying for it...
Paying for a type rating is a nasty practice that's creeping in from the airline sector. Without doubt it erodes our terms and conditions in what still is (in my opinion) the last decent sector of this industry which is why you find that so many people resent it, particularly those of us who stood our ground in the past and refused to pay. I know there are people who reject applicants offering to buy their way in, I've done so myself.
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S.F.L.Y
Let me translate what people saying here: "we have type rating and experience and have no job or afraid to loose the job, that's why we don't want you or anyone else to make competition".
Although I'm not sure at all if you would get a job having TR but no experience on the type, you can be assured that without TR you will not get it until market becomes desparate again, ie 5 years min from now.
At the moment CVs from non-TR guys are going directly to trash bin.
Let me translate what people saying here: "we have type rating and experience and have no job or afraid to loose the job, that's why we don't want you or anyone else to make competition".
Although I'm not sure at all if you would get a job having TR but no experience on the type, you can be assured that without TR you will not get it until market becomes desparate again, ie 5 years min from now.
At the moment CVs from non-TR guys are going directly to trash bin.
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pay for recurrents as well
This is the latest extension to the cost cutting game.
As a "current" crew member is a legal requirement can a company bond a crew member for the duration of the validity of their mandatory recurrent training.
In the EU this is a restriction of trade, and I believe totally illegal.
Perhaps not in Austria, Russia and the Middle East.
Has anyone else seen this evolving.
glf
As a "current" crew member is a legal requirement can a company bond a crew member for the duration of the validity of their mandatory recurrent training.
In the EU this is a restriction of trade, and I believe totally illegal.
Perhaps not in Austria, Russia and the Middle East.
Has anyone else seen this evolving.
glf
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Well if you are bonded for 12 months on a recurrent that lasts 12 months the only way to get out is:
a) Buy yourself out
b) Leave with no licence
c) Get fired.
d) Bring the company down.
"Were doomed, all doomed!"
a) Buy yourself out
b) Leave with no licence
c) Get fired.
d) Bring the company down.
"Were doomed, all doomed!"
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Let me translate what people saying here: "we have type rating and experience and have no job or afraid to loose the job, that's why we don't want you or anyone else to make competition".
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I agree with CargoOne: no type rating - (almost) no chance and with type rating - at least a minimal chance.
The bottomline is, that if you bump into the right employer who wants you and nobody but you, he/she will pay for your type rating anyway.
Hard to say though which one is right for you...
The bottomline is, that if you bump into the right employer who wants you and nobody but you, he/she will pay for your type rating anyway.
Hard to say though which one is right for you...
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Thanks for all your comments.
Flintstone, for the past two years I refused to consider position where a SSTR was required. At the end of the day it's now a year and a half I'm on the ground. I don't know what you mean by wet stamp on the license but I think my little experience (3000tt mainly turboprops multi-crew ops) is enough to keep some hope. Today the market is in favor of employers and I'm not to be blamed for that. I am not gonna give up on my carreer simply because experienced guys are ahead of me. I am not wasting my time and keep building-up industry experience to remain competitive in a way or another. I know what I want and I'll do what is required to get it instead of giving up without trying, which has nothing to do with :"buying" a job. I don't have deep pockets and I'm hardly earning the money I chose to invest that way. Believe me I'd prefer to see my family enjoying it.
Flintstone, for the past two years I refused to consider position where a SSTR was required. At the end of the day it's now a year and a half I'm on the ground. I don't know what you mean by wet stamp on the license but I think my little experience (3000tt mainly turboprops multi-crew ops) is enough to keep some hope. Today the market is in favor of employers and I'm not to be blamed for that. I am not gonna give up on my carreer simply because experienced guys are ahead of me. I am not wasting my time and keep building-up industry experience to remain competitive in a way or another. I know what I want and I'll do what is required to get it instead of giving up without trying, which has nothing to do with :"buying" a job. I don't have deep pockets and I'm hardly earning the money I chose to invest that way. Believe me I'd prefer to see my family enjoying it.
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It is buying a job and it directly undermines T's and C's. Look at what happened to airlines with the likes of easyJet and Ryanair. How many threads are there on PPRuNe about the way RYR treat their crew? Imagine if their pilots were bonded instead and RYR acted the way they do. People would leave and cite breach of contract or constructive dismissal leaving RYR with no leg to stand on and recover their bonds.
Instead the pilots buy their way in and are then shackled to the company because they (the company) know that those with a wet stamp on their licence (ie, a new type rating) are screwed if they try to leave. But here's the twist, RYR reduce the flying for their new hires once they reach the 500 hour mark to make way for the next wave of paying customers who want the right hand seat. So flying pay goes down, take home pay reduces and not only is there less money to live on but now there's a great big loan to repay. Or not.
Most of us have families and of course we want to look after them. I took mine half way round the world and then back again to do so without contributing to the dog-eat-dog mess that prevails in airlines and some people want to bring to bizjets. I and many others worked up to reasonable jobs having refused to buy in to this rip-off. It slowed us down but I like to think it made some small difference and that's where CargoOne is wrong. I'm not worried that someone buying a type rating will get my job because they won't unless the TR comes with eighteen years experience, several thousand hours plus a thousand or so hours on type. What I am worried about is that someone buying their job will displace another with the integrity not to buy their way in. Someone I would much rather share a cockpit with.
Someone with more experience will always be ahead of you and there will always be someone with less experience behind you. That's how we work our way up as professionals, gaining experience, hours, skill. It's what used to be called a career.
Instead the pilots buy their way in and are then shackled to the company because they (the company) know that those with a wet stamp on their licence (ie, a new type rating) are screwed if they try to leave. But here's the twist, RYR reduce the flying for their new hires once they reach the 500 hour mark to make way for the next wave of paying customers who want the right hand seat. So flying pay goes down, take home pay reduces and not only is there less money to live on but now there's a great big loan to repay. Or not.
Most of us have families and of course we want to look after them. I took mine half way round the world and then back again to do so without contributing to the dog-eat-dog mess that prevails in airlines and some people want to bring to bizjets. I and many others worked up to reasonable jobs having refused to buy in to this rip-off. It slowed us down but I like to think it made some small difference and that's where CargoOne is wrong. I'm not worried that someone buying a type rating will get my job because they won't unless the TR comes with eighteen years experience, several thousand hours plus a thousand or so hours on type. What I am worried about is that someone buying their job will displace another with the integrity not to buy their way in. Someone I would much rather share a cockpit with.
I am not gonna give up on my carreer simply because experienced guys are ahead of me.
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Try this,
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ating-get.html
S.F.L.Y., I hear where you're coming from but your arguements sound pretty short-sighted to me. All I say is take a good, long, hard look in the mirror and remember that that is the face that you'll be looking at in 10, 20, 30 years time.
Chips
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ating-get.html
S.F.L.Y., I hear where you're coming from but your arguements sound pretty short-sighted to me. All I say is take a good, long, hard look in the mirror and remember that that is the face that you'll be looking at in 10, 20, 30 years time.
Chips