Self sponsored Type Rating and job offers

[NuName]

S.F.L.Y.

I don't quite understand why you posted in the first place, its seems you do not want to discuss the topic, you have already decided. Well good luck, you will need it, 3,000 & turboprop won't give you much pull from the outside these days, you need to get help from the inside. Having said that, there's no substitute for a bit of luck. But why could you not stay on the turboprops until this low hiring cycle is over? Why exactly are you "grounded"?

[kwachon]

S.F.L.Y

Your theory on paying for a typerating with no time on type does not hold water. What you are doing is nothing short of prostitution to the airlines.

Here in India I have had so many pilots come through that have just obtained a type rating (self financed), through contacts and other means and have been selected for a right seat position with one of the LoCo's in this region.

Eventually they have to have a checkride with a DGCA Examiner and I can tell you, they almost all fail, why, they honestly have no idea what goes on outside the airplane, it's all just like Flightsim X to them. They cannot even use the radio, just listen to ATC in Mumbai or Delhi for yourself and you will hear the Captain having to tell ATC to disregard the last transmission and make a corrected one. It really is a problem, these guys need to be there as part of the crew but have no idea. Now with monsoon season upon us it will only be worse.

Now you will probably say I am over-reacting and am one of those bastard examiners, not so, I have been an examiner for many years and apart from the skill set needed to pass the ride, I always ask myself the question, "would I let my family fly in the back with this guy/lady at the controls". It is a tough call to tell them they busted but there are standards there for a good reason. Sadly not all examiners follow them.

Being as you have

3000 hours Turborop time

you might consider coming here, there is a high demand for ATR Captains and First Officers, The upgrade time is good, salary is good and the move up to big jets is there if you do well, and the airline will pay for it. That is how most of us did it and it works well.

If you are interested, PM me and I will try and help you.

Cheers

KW

[B200Drvr]

I think there are two side to the coin here.

1) The guy/ girl who goes into an interview and offers to pay for his own type rating. BIG NO NO. As this is what erodes our T&C's and more.

2) The guy/ girl who goes out and gets type rated and then sends his CV out as a type rated pilot sans time on type. Nowt wrong with that in my mind, as this pilot has less chance of getting the job than another type rated pilot with time on type, but is making himself marketable.

Most job postings I have seen state "type rated applicants only" This in my mind means, that even if you are an "ACE" pilot, without the required rating, you will stand no chance what so ever of being considered for the position. If it says "type rated pilots only" and you are not type rated, then sending your resume is wasting a prospective employers time.

[PicMas]

Pardon my ignorance here but...

Your stated case is:

There are no jobs available so I must invest additionally in my credentials, then there will be jobs.

I honestly fail to see the logic.

The number of bizjets in operation are on the decline at present, resulting in many pilots being unemployed. You argue that with an investment in a typerating you will position yourself to get a job??

How much were you planning on investing? (that it will reverse the economic downturn that is upon us)

[S.F.L.Y]

Thanks for all of your comments.

NuName, it's not because my mind is set that we cannot exchange our opinions about it. It seems there's a lot to say and who knows, maybe you'll manage to convince me

Once again, I did try to get the job without TR and couldn't even get a single interview. As B200drvr said, employers are only looking after rated people. Keeping applying without a rating is just wasting a lot of time.

I'm not buying a job, employers doesn't care where my rating is coming from (bought or paid by a previous employer). Flint, tell me where is the difference on the CV between a self sponsored rating and a "free" one (nothing is free in this world). I'm not gonna change anything by paying my rating as this was already a regular practice 12 years ago when I joined the industry so please be kind enough for not blaming me on this. Are you blaming pilots who paid for their licenses as well (to buy a job)? I didn't pay for my 2 CPLs (A&H) with MEIR meaning I never "bought" a job before. Flint, do you think all the pilots were lucky enough to start their career for free like I did? At the end of the day my overall investment in the career will be less than for most of the currently employed pilots.

Free ratings are usually coming with brand new aircraft. Nobody would be fool enough to pay for a new one when you can get up to 30% discount in the second hand market. The used aircraft market is good for buyers and this starts to generate some moves. None of them will include free ratings.

Experience is less and less an asset and this comes form operators, not me.

Picmas, I'm not saying that investing in industry credentials (not only flying credentials) will generate jobs but at least I'm valuating my time and this will definitely be an asset whenever jobs will come.

[plugster]

I'm not trying to be a nitpicker, but if you with 3000h on turboprop don't get even an invitation to an interview you might ask yourself whether there is something wrong with your appearance ( CV, photo, attitude) or the like. An operator with demand would think twice about you with your decent experience still willing to pay for a typerating, wouldn't he? How could you give any positive answer in an interview if you are asked how you ended up with 0hrs on the specific type?

[S.F.L.Y]

Thanks Plugster,
I'm based in the Middle East and turboprop time is not valuated the same way as it could be in Europe. Operators are mainly looking for type rated and jet experienced guys which are always available from abroad. I'm not ready to give up on my career without trying to do something about it. It might fail but at least I'll know I did what I could.

[doubleu-anker]

S.F.L.Y

Correct.

There are people out there who will stick a knife, in your back, fare between the shoulder blades to take your job or mine for less than half the money.

None of us are indispensable as we are only as good as our last flight in this business, meaning, screw up bad enough and you're out. None of us are immune, regardless of experience.

In an ideal world, it is true, don't pay for a type rating. However if you think it will get you ahead and you have the cash, go for it but it is extremely risky. Anyone who has even paid for a license is guilty of financing their qualifications, just as much as the guy who has paid or prepared to pay for a type rating. I financed my licence, so I am as guilty as the next.

Pilots will never ever stick together, on anything. there will always be people who will break ranks. This is the very reason we are all working for rubbish and slaves to the industry because none of us will ever stick together and never have. Like it or not accountants have a very big say in how money is spent. Why should they agree to payout for a TR, when some one is prepared to pay for it, or already has the TR? From an accountants point of view it would be stupid to shall out for training when not necessary. This is business hard nosed as it is. And no I cant stand accountants either.

I have been flying professionally since 1972, (dangerous job) when I was paid "good" money and still am and yet my salary has more than halved in real terms since then. So we really cant blame the self financers for this can we.

[CargoOne]

Just wondering how many of you haven't paid for ATPL license? What's the difference between buying ATPL and TR? Should we say real pilots only those who never paid their ATPL?

And by the way, those who suggesting SFLY to think about long term perpective and industry wide T&C situation, how about you to donate him a few grands a month until the time of non-TR people will come again?

[hawker750]

Type ratings
My company has never asked a pilot to pay for their own TR, it is immoral and would not encourage a good working relationship with that pilot. The problem in today's training enviroment is that a lot of people think that a 14 day course with FS = fit for the job. Definately not so. This is because a lot of AOC companies, as well as management companies, do not have a very robust in house training capability so they need experienced pilots. Here we have a very good in house training set up, so I much prefer to take on a 500 hour pilot (or less), type rate them and spend quality time line training them. When I recruit I just say that I would be very disappointed if they left before 3 years was up. In this job it is the quality of the pilot that is the most important factor. I am delighted to say that I have never been let down and very happy to say that the ex "cadets" now range from a Virgin A340 Captain down to my Chief Pilot.
I am not a great Net Jets fan but I understand their training philosophy is similar to mine.
Unfortunately we are not recruiting now due to the downturn, but when we do it will be the "working in the office for a year then type rating route". It is great to fly with guys who have served their time in the Ops Office

[Flintstone]

Originally Posted by S.F.L.Y.

Flint, tell me where is the difference on the CV between a self sponsored rating and a "free" one....

The difference, as already mentioned by several people, is that many in this branch of the industry still regard a SSTR as wrong. Some of those people get to choose applicants and react negatively to people who have paid in this way so to answer your question a paid-for type rating can see your CV into the bin.

Originally Posted by S.F.L.Y.

....(nothing is free in this world).

I've had seven type ratings paid for by employers and was paid the same as people who brought their ratings with them. I'd say that was free.

The majority of us had to pay for our licence because without one you can't get a job. You can get a job without paying for a type rating, it's just harder.

Originally Posted by CargoOne

And by the way, those who suggesting SFLY to think about long term perpective and industry wide T&C situation, how about you to donate him a few grands a month until the time of non-TR people will come again?

Not a terribly helpful contribution to the debate really. Please feel free to join in with anything meaningful.




Consider doubleu-anker's last paragraph. Why have T&C's deteriorated so much over his time in the industry? Because pilots let them and paying for more and more of your training will just make the situation worse. Just think on that, pilots pay to make their own situation worse.

And you think I'm the one with strange ideas?

[CargoOne]

Flintstone

I think you are too much focused on global things like industry-wide t&c etc. Why don't you want to look on particular case: this guy needs a job to support himself & familty and there is nothing suggests he is a bad pilot. Without TR he don't have a single chance to get a job in current environment.

And by the way I'm one of those who sending CVs to trash bin, so I do not agree people are too much focused whether TR was SS or provided by company. Naturally the preference is given to those who have hours on the type and good references. Then the same but no references. Then TR & no hours gyus. What is left to non-TR pilots? Nothing.
This would change some day but only due to the fact there will be no type rated guys avail on the market.

I'm not talking about major airlines, they can afford a different policy because they are regularly bailed-out by governments anyway.

[Flintstone]

CargoOne.

Sorry but I really can't see what you're doing here. If you think that 'industry wide global things' should be ignored then...............jeez, where do I even start to explain? As for S.F.L.Y.'s piloting abilities, where did that come from?

Random and irrelevant comments don't really contribute to the topic at hand. I've no wish to appear rude but post away as you like and I'll pitch in if/when you get the hang of it

[doubleu-anker]

Hawker750

You obviously work for, or are a very good and moral employer. Therefore bonding is probably not unnecessary as they look after their employees.

Your employer is obviously aware their greatest asset apart from the aircraft, are their employees. "Look after your employees and they will look after you and your equipment."

Who wants out of a decent company?

Sounds like you may know a little about "man management". A rare thing these days!

[NuName]

Well I guess I have to say that if an individual decides that to self sponser for a TR will enhance their possibilities to become gainfuly employed, that is their absolute right and no one can deny them that. No one helped me in the begining, I did not expect them to, I could not afford a type, but if I could have afforded it I may well have done so. It is not a level playing field, thats life, this vocation is expensive and some are better placed than others to take advantage in certain area's. We all do what we can to maximise our employability. For those that cry foul, this aint no game, this is working for a living and doing whatever is required to get noticed and be selected. Not much point going home to the wife and kids to tell them, I could have got the job but it just wasn't cricket to ....... blah blah blah.

Ducking now

[S.F.L.Y]

If you think that 'industry wide global things' should be ignored then...............jeez, where do I even start to explain?

Please tell me how did I contribute to preserve the "industry" by refusing to pay so far?

16 years ago when I started making my career plans people were already asked to pay for TR... you can't blame me for things your generation failed to improve.

Flintstone, why don't you go further and ask rated guys not to apply to companies having TR in their requirements? After all they also contribute to this situation. I didn't spoil the market, it was spoiled long time before I join it. If you don't agree with my decision you should at least respect it as I do respect your opinion which was mine for so many years. It is useless to criticize without bringing an alternative. What is your offer to my family?

[Flintstone]

My generation failed to preserve? I think you'll find that fewer of 'us' paid for our TR's than 'they' have in (say) the last five, or even ten, years. How is 'their' behaviour 'our' fault?

Please tell me how did I contribute to preserve the "industry" by refusing to pay so far?

I know that you know the answer to that one but I'll refer you again to doubleu-anker's post in which he describes his earnings in real terms compared to thirty years ago. We still have a generally better deal than the low cost airlines and even some of the majors. What would we have if we'd all started handing our money over a decade and a half ago?

My offer to your family? Well, how about the possibility that if you (we) stand our ground now and not contribute to further degradation of terms and conditions you'll have a half-decent income for the rest of your career?

To be honest I'm getting a little tired of hearing people criticise me and people like me for the state of the industry when I/we've done absolutely nothing to cause it, in fact quite the opposite. Desperate times call for desperate measures, I understand that, but buying a job isn't the way to guarantee your long term security.

[CargoOne]

Flintstone,

Just remember my words: one day you will face the same situation, no job, no one wants to give you a job without SSTR and then you will immideately forget about world wide long term situation because you will realise bulls***ing about it will not help you to feed family and pay mortage.

It is very nice and smart to discuss those things when you have the good job. What I learned in aviation after many years - you cannot be sure about anything. One day you may knock the door looking for a job and -surprise- there will be SFLY sitting at Chief Pilot desk. So don't be arrognant to your colleagues, it will pay off one day.

[smallfry]

And there you are Flint! You have spent months, nay years, helping people get jobs, but because you don't want people to pay for their type ratings they wont give you a job. Isn't life tough...
And that man Duck Rogers, he should pay attention too! All this helping people doesn't pay off!
See you when I need a job Flint...

[His dudeness]

@smallfry: maybe you are right, still I believe in a greater balance in life, somehow the things you do to others come back and catch up with you one day...good and bad.

We all do what we can to maximise our employability.

Then go ahead and minimize your wages (ideally zero, zilch, nada, niente)

That ensures maximum employability. Oh no wait a minute...

this aint no game, this is working for a living

I do detect a slight sort of discontinuity there...

Folks its easy. Pay up, sell yourself cheap. Then everything will be bright pink, heaven on earth