Bizzjet vs. airliner ?
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Bizzjet vs. airliner ?
Dear all,
I'm currently flying B738, but I've always liked Bizz aviation!
Problem is that I don't have any experience in bizz aviation, so if all of you who have been flying bizzjets could write some good or bad sides of bizz aviation, or some things which you think is good to know before even trying to enter business aviation world!
Thanks!
I'm currently flying B738, but I've always liked Bizz aviation!
Problem is that I don't have any experience in bizz aviation, so if all of you who have been flying bizzjets could write some good or bad sides of bizz aviation, or some things which you think is good to know before even trying to enter business aviation world!
Thanks!
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Airlines/Bizjets
Hi
This topic has been dealt with many times in the past and to summarise: The two types of flying are very different. The "polling" of course is the same but the operating side is like chalk and cheese. Many airline pilots do not make the transition to biz flying easily, the lack of general support and the feeling of being on one's own is allien after an airline carreer. For example, many airline pilots cannot file an ATC flight plan.
An example: years ago we employed an extremely likeable ex airline pilot who could fly the airoplane beautifully. He came to work one day and about 15 minutes after his scheduled departure (luckily empty) he was asked why he had not left. He answered that there was a delay. Operations could not find out what the delay was about and again asked the Captain to get going. He reiterated that there had to be a delay. We eventually got to the botton of the problem. We employed a young lad to do the refueling, cleaning etc and his duties also included taking off the engine and pitot covers. He had gone sick that day and because the covers were still on................
Do not get me wrong, I am not anti airline guys, a lot of them can and do make the change well, but it can be quite a culture shock.
It would be good to hear from those guys who have made the change to Biz Av. whether successfully or not.
This topic has been dealt with many times in the past and to summarise: The two types of flying are very different. The "polling" of course is the same but the operating side is like chalk and cheese. Many airline pilots do not make the transition to biz flying easily, the lack of general support and the feeling of being on one's own is allien after an airline carreer. For example, many airline pilots cannot file an ATC flight plan.
An example: years ago we employed an extremely likeable ex airline pilot who could fly the airoplane beautifully. He came to work one day and about 15 minutes after his scheduled departure (luckily empty) he was asked why he had not left. He answered that there was a delay. Operations could not find out what the delay was about and again asked the Captain to get going. He reiterated that there had to be a delay. We eventually got to the botton of the problem. We employed a young lad to do the refueling, cleaning etc and his duties also included taking off the engine and pitot covers. He had gone sick that day and because the covers were still on................
Do not get me wrong, I am not anti airline guys, a lot of them can and do make the change well, but it can be quite a culture shock.
It would be good to hear from those guys who have made the change to Biz Av. whether successfully or not.
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Thanks for answering,
I know this is an old topic, but I'm new at pprune, so couldn't find it!
Are there more cases airline pilots going to biz jets or vice versa?
What about the conditions, money, I suppose it;s better in bizjet, but you are always on stby?
I know this is an old topic, but I'm new at pprune, so couldn't find it!
Are there more cases airline pilots going to biz jets or vice versa?
What about the conditions, money, I suppose it;s better in bizjet, but you are always on stby?
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I think you cannot generalise it. I guess it all depends on which company you are working for, which kind of operation etc. I started my career with the airlines and now am employed by a major european bizjet operator. Didnīt find it too difficult to adjust and the general working conditions quite good, but I also understand that my company also provides a lot of support compared to smaller operators. My bottom line is: If you arenīt lazy, you shouldnīt have problems to adjust.
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It has and can be done. It is a matter of getting the ex airline folks fully indoc'd into the corporate/Bizav world. Firstly they MUST realize that they are their own Flt Ops Support with all the systems and software that goes with it. Self reliance and a willingness to adapt 2,000 times a day is a prerequisite along with the patience of a saint
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I believe it can be done.
And of course it depends what kind of person you are, and what kind or airline or biz company are you working for.
So basically, if I understood right, all you guys who became a biz pilots after an airline career are more happier?
And would not go back to airline?
Of course, I'm talking about 'normal' airline and biz companies.
Not like something I'm flying for
And of course it depends what kind of person you are, and what kind or airline or biz company are you working for.
So basically, if I understood right, all you guys who became a biz pilots after an airline career are more happier?
And would not go back to airline?
Of course, I'm talking about 'normal' airline and biz companies.
Not like something I'm flying for
.
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We have a few ex airline guys in our company and they all seem to get on fine. They help bring the SOP standard up a bit and we teach them how to eat hard sandwiches and clean carpets. I'm sure anyone with a GA background before they joined the airlines will find it easy to adjust.
Most of the airline guys that I've met in the Biz jet world seem happy they tried it but preffer the Biz jets.
Not a good time to try but I'd recommend it
GOOD
Going to lots of places you'll never go in a 737.
Knowing all of the Pilots in your company by name.
Actually talking to the people you fly.
Not having to write a report if you take more than min fuel.
Away enough to keep you and the Mrs happy.
left over VIP food
Open expenses when your away( within limits)
BAD
Knowing all the pilots you fly with.( If you end up with the chief Pilot every week)
Can be a lot of days doing nothing.
I'll let others fill in the rest
Most of the airline guys that I've met in the Biz jet world seem happy they tried it but preffer the Biz jets.
Not a good time to try but I'd recommend it
GOOD
Going to lots of places you'll never go in a 737.
Knowing all of the Pilots in your company by name.
Actually talking to the people you fly.
Not having to write a report if you take more than min fuel.
Away enough to keep you and the Mrs happy.
left over VIP food
Open expenses when your away( within limits)
BAD
Knowing all the pilots you fly with.( If you end up with the chief Pilot every week
)Can be a lot of days doing nothing.
I'll let others fill in the rest
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BIZJET vs AIRLINER... Hmmmm..
Bizjet - has wings, tailplane, fuselage, engines etc - it can kill you if you abuse it and will humble you anytime.
Airliner - has wings, tailplane, fuselage, engines etc - it can kill you if you abuse it and will humble you anytime.
The rest is merely detail
Bizjet - has wings, tailplane, fuselage, engines etc - it can kill you if you abuse it and will humble you anytime.
Airliner - has wings, tailplane, fuselage, engines etc - it can kill you if you abuse it and will humble you anytime.
The rest is merely detail
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Reg 6
Unfortunately you seem to be unaware that the "detail" makes the dfifference between a pilot and an operator. Most pilots are pretty good at the flying bit, not all are good operators.
Unfortunately you seem to be unaware that the "detail" makes the dfifference between a pilot and an operator. Most pilots are pretty good at the flying bit, not all are good operators.
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Thx for the info Vanpilot,
so basically, it's fun!
Ofcourse, now is not the good time to change type or employer or anything, but in hopefully near future!
so basically, it's fun!
Ofcourse, now is not the good time to change type or employer or anything, but in hopefully near future!
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Reg 6
Come play in the Corporate/Bizav world, then you can start chucking your toys about
As Hawker said, you don't know the difference between pilots and operators
As Hawker said, you don't know the difference between pilots and operators
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You Chaps are getting rather sensitive - calm down...
Looking back to my previous posts I fail to observe the slightest thing that could be interpreted as confrontational - so why get so excited ?
BTW - What makes you think I am not in the Bizjet world ? I suppose though, that having been firmly told that I am a Pilot, not an Operator, I can't be...
Looking back to my previous posts I fail to observe the slightest thing that could be interpreted as confrontational - so why get so excited ?
BTW - What makes you think I am not in the Bizjet world ? I suppose though, that having been firmly told that I am a Pilot, not an Operator, I can't be...
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Thats because we are primadonnas, the lot of us.
Exactly the opposite is true, IF you aim to be a good exec pilot. At least in my opinion. (and surely depending on the organisation behind you)
I "operate" a citation mainly in EUR,EEU and MES without any backoffice. (I do flight/fuelplanning myself and arrange permissions, keep the maintenance on track and organize our simulator trainings, deal with suppliers, sort out subcharters if required etcetc.) An Airliner with pure airline knowledge would have a painful learning phase doing that. There is no reason they cant learn it though, but you need a different mindset to achieve the results wanted.
But you KNOW that already, dontcha?
The rest is merely detail
I "operate" a citation mainly in EUR,EEU and MES without any backoffice. (I do flight/fuelplanning myself and arrange permissions, keep the maintenance on track and organize our simulator trainings, deal with suppliers, sort out subcharters if required etcetc.) An Airliner with pure airline knowledge would have a painful learning phase doing that. There is no reason they cant learn it though, but you need a different mindset to achieve the results wanted.
But you KNOW that already, dontcha?
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Yes I do Dude - thanks All credit and respect to you - you provide a very erudite account of the tasks required of some Corporate Pilots.
Moving from one branch of aviation to another just requires some training, flexibility and a good attitude (i.e. not an 'us & them' mentality). If you have these, it's easy.
BTW - I agree with Vanpilot who sums up some of the differences fairly well.
All credit and respect to you - you provide a very erudite account of the tasks required of some Corporate Pilots.Moving from one branch of aviation to another just requires some training, flexibility and a good attitude (i.e. not an 'us & them' mentality). If you have these, it's easy.
BTW - I agree with Vanpilot who sums up some of the differences fairly well.
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Reg 6
Bizjet - has wings, tailplane, fuselage, engines etc - it can kill you if you abuse it and will humble you anytime.
I think it was the way you put it put my back up and probably a few others. A plane will not kill you if you abuse it. You will kill yourself and I really think that being humbled by a plane is a rather weird statement. You should never be humbled if you have sufficient skill, training, kowledge and confidence. To admit to being humbled is rather scary, it rather suggests that the aircraft gets the better of you. I can honestly say that I cannot remember being humbled; frustrated, annoyed, perplexed maybe but not humbled. I think that was in the days of Gann when your training consisted of being handed the pilots' notes. Even I started my career after Gann finished flying, but I do think that Fate is the Hunter should be made a compulsory subject for the ATPL exams.
Bizjet - has wings, tailplane, fuselage, engines etc - it can kill you if you abuse it and will humble you anytime.
I think it was the way you put it put my back up and probably a few others. A plane will not kill you if you abuse it. You will kill yourself and I really think that being humbled by a plane is a rather weird statement. You should never be humbled if you have sufficient skill, training, kowledge and confidence. To admit to being humbled is rather scary, it rather suggests that the aircraft gets the better of you. I can honestly say that I cannot remember being humbled; frustrated, annoyed, perplexed maybe but not humbled. I think that was in the days of Gann when your training consisted of being handed the pilots' notes. Even I started my career after Gann finished flying, but I do think that Fate is the Hunter should be made a compulsory subject for the ATPL exams.
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I retired from a long airline career, during which I flew bizjets part/time.
Originally, I had flown Lears as type rating instructor, during airline layoff.
I continued that activity especially during my years with airline F/O paycheck.
xxx
My Lear operator flew a lot of air to air photography for Boeing or Douglas.
Also air to air shots for famous Hollywood movies.
Also gave me the opportunity to fly "corporate style" (FAR 135 actually).
Typical were flights for VIPs or famous entertainers i.e. Los Angeles to Las Vegas.
Stay there for the evening, be invited to their show, then return early morning.
Some passengers even gave us a nice tip...!
As the years went by, I stayed vaguely current on the Lear 20/30s.
No much active anymore. I rather fly my own L-21.
xxx
Airline or bizjet...? - Actually I prefer airline.
But as far as flying the bizjets, loved doing instruction and air to air photography.
Doing 20 or 25 touch and goes per day was fun... plus a few V1 cuts...!
Scared me quite a few times. The LR-24B is not a center-line thrust airplane.
In these years - a Lear rating was rarely flown using simulators...
xxx
Happy contrails
Originally, I had flown Lears as type rating instructor, during airline layoff.
I continued that activity especially during my years with airline F/O paycheck.
xxx
My Lear operator flew a lot of air to air photography for Boeing or Douglas.
Also air to air shots for famous Hollywood movies.
Also gave me the opportunity to fly "corporate style" (FAR 135 actually).
Typical were flights for VIPs or famous entertainers i.e. Los Angeles to Las Vegas.
Stay there for the evening, be invited to their show, then return early morning.
Some passengers even gave us a nice tip...!
As the years went by, I stayed vaguely current on the Lear 20/30s.
No much active anymore. I rather fly my own L-21.
xxx
Airline or bizjet...? - Actually I prefer airline.
But as far as flying the bizjets, loved doing instruction and air to air photography.
Doing 20 or 25 touch and goes per day was fun... plus a few V1 cuts...!
Scared me quite a few times. The LR-24B is not a center-line thrust airplane.
In these years - a Lear rating was rarely flown using simulators...
xxx
Happy contrails
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Twin - agreed
BelArg - Nice post and a very interesting insight.
I have flown corporate jets but the vast majority of my 20K odd flying hours I have to say were in Airliners. However, although the nicest aircraft I have ever flown was probably the Lear 40, lots of airliners came very close. I have never disliked any aircraft that I have had the privelege to fly.
I make no apology for describing myself as a Pilot - not an Operator. My contract of employment, and all previous ones describe my job as that of a Pilot. When comparing the the role of an Airline Pilot to that of a Corporate Pilot I maintain that the differences are in the detail. There is some amount of willy-waving when describing all the extra tasks the average Corporate pilot has to do, but these are not difficult - they are simply tasks that are undertaken by ground staff in most Airlines. I take my hat off to all of you who (as I have) cheerfully undertake these duties but lets not confuse them with actually flying (OK operating if you like) an aeroplane. When you analyse the time between start-up and shut-down, my view is that many corporate operators could learn a lot from the airlines - with the exception of the large operators such as NJ who presumably have robust and effective SOPs - unlike some of the smaller ones who have little or no standardisation.
Thats my 2.5p worth. BTW Hawker - I don't wish to be confrontational but I disagree with everything in your last post. The adjective 'humble' often associated with the noun 'humility' is very much a part of the theme of 'Fate is the Hunter'
BelArg - Nice post and a very interesting insight.
I have flown corporate jets but the vast majority of my 20K odd flying hours I have to say were in Airliners. However, although the nicest aircraft I have ever flown was probably the Lear 40, lots of airliners came very close. I have never disliked any aircraft that I have had the privelege to fly.
I make no apology for describing myself as a Pilot - not an Operator. My contract of employment, and all previous ones describe my job as that of a Pilot. When comparing the the role of an Airline Pilot to that of a Corporate Pilot I maintain that the differences are in the detail. There is some amount of willy-waving when describing all the extra tasks the average Corporate pilot has to do, but these are not difficult - they are simply tasks that are undertaken by ground staff in most Airlines. I take my hat off to all of you who (as I have) cheerfully undertake these duties but lets not confuse them with actually flying (OK operating if you like) an aeroplane. When you analyse the time between start-up and shut-down, my view is that many corporate operators could learn a lot from the airlines - with the exception of the large operators such as NJ who presumably have robust and effective SOPs - unlike some of the smaller ones who have little or no standardisation.
Thats my 2.5p worth. BTW Hawker - I don't wish to be confrontational but I disagree with everything in your last post. The adjective 'humble' often associated with the noun 'humility' is very much a part of the theme of 'Fate is the Hunter'