Name & Shame - Operating Commercial Flights on Private Aircraft!!!
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And heres me thinking the whole point of the thread was about dodgy operators and how many hoops you had to jump through to do things "properly". If you were sincerley asking how you you can do AOC work on the cheap and cut corners (which is exactly to what this thread refers and you've been moaning about) then please accept my apologies!
Classic! - You have been trying to make these points all the way through the thread - dont stop now just because it suits and you're beginning to make sense 
And heres me thinking the whole point of the thread was about dodgy operators and how many hoops you had to jump through to do things "properly". If you were sincerley asking how you you can do AOC work on the cheap and cut corners (which is exactly to what this thread refers and you've been moaning about) then please accept my apologies!
When are you going to address the points I actually make, rather than the ones you think people of my opinion must be trying to make, despite what I actually say?
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It might do you good to try again. Read IO540's post, then my response to it. Then you might actually understand the point I am making, because either you don't yet understand it or you are being completely dishonest in your reply. If you are really struggling there is an explanation at the bottom of this post.
Then try reading through the thread again, because in your last post you lied, presumably by again misunderstanding everything you've read rather than through dishonest intentions. I have not been making any of the points you implied I had.
IO540 said that an AOC was only used to keep cheap non-AOC operators out, implying that such operators should be allowed into the market. I pointed out what factors might make a non-AOC flight cheaper, some of those factors already seen in illegal charters I know of.. I really didn't think I needed to point out that those factors make the flight less safe. Economics rule the day, and if they were allowed then these practices would become common, and safer operators would be driven out of business.
It might do you good to try again. Read IO540's post, then my response to it. Then you might actually understand the point I am making, because either you don't yet understand it or you are being completely dishonest in your reply. If you are really struggling there is an explanation at the bottom of this post.
Then try reading through the thread again, because in your last post you lied, presumably by again misunderstanding everything you've read rather than through dishonest intentions. I have not been making any of the points you implied I had.
IO540 said that an AOC was only used to keep cheap non-AOC operators out, implying that such operators should be allowed into the market. I pointed out what factors might make a non-AOC flight cheaper, some of those factors already seen in illegal charters I know of.. I really didn't think I needed to point out that those factors make the flight less safe. Economics rule the day, and if they were allowed then these practices would become common, and safer operators would be driven out of business.
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It has been a most entertaining thread with plenty of drama and histrionics so far. About the only commonly agreed point so far is that the current EU Ops AOCs are hideously overbearing in terms of both expense and complexity for operators of corporate aircraft, rather than the airlines for whom the regulations were designed.
Perhaps, if it ever comes to fruition, EU Ops 2 will prove to be more relevant to smaller operators, and thus remove the temptation to avoid the regs. in order to perform illegal charters.
Perhaps, if it ever comes to fruition, EU Ops 2 will prove to be more relevant to smaller operators, and thus remove the temptation to avoid the regs. in order to perform illegal charters.
Yes any regulation could be made in the name of safety. I could regulate that every AOC pilot must dummy run his flight in a simulator first. There could be an arguement that the real flight would be safer?
The UK government boasted that it has increased jobs by 20% before the recession. The fact was those inreases were mainly made up in government and regulatory positions.
Having created all those positions the people employed have to sit there thinking about their next week, next month work. If it breathes regulate it so we have an expensive out of control monster.
3000 new criminal offences in the space of one year?
When it comes to aviation the same things apply too many cooks interfering and loading aviation to the point of collapse especially now with the recession.
Aviation regulations should be guided by safety. Ie identify a genuine safety threat and fix it. But there is a mass of self protectionism evident by some of the opinions placed here and as usual all argued in the name of safety.
As 10540 said you will never make light GA aircraft as safe as the bigger stuff for the reasons he described.
Company employees travelling in a company private jet are NO different or NO more knowlegable about their flight or aviation than Joe Bloggs in the street but Joe Bloggs in the street is entitled to a far higher level of "safety" that to me is double standards.
There was an in depth study on FAA V JAA Atps NO difference was found between the two on safety grounds yet you try and change one for the other. Having the safety angle closed the argument was then made that the same could not be said for licences issued in third world countries and of course the regulators cannot be seen to show bias.
And yes I am a cynic
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 18th Dec 2008 at 22:30.
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Regulation, regulation, strangulation.....
Pace, I completely agree that regulation for beaurocratic satisfaction alone does not make aviation any safer at all. The gist of my post was that the over-regulation of corporate charter ops is because under current EU Ops, there is no difference between trying to operate an airline or a single aircraft on ad hoc charters, in terms of standards or accountability.
For example, presently there is virtually a moratorium on any "computer generated" performance data unless it is certified by the manufacturer to be JAA approved. In an airline with a "performance office", they have the resources to validate this data, and hence get it approved by the AOC authority. For small companies this is not a viable option, just as they cannot afford to employ all the required post-holders full-time, so have to pay 'consultant' personnel at exorbitant costs to meet their mandatory staffing level. When EU Ops2 is approved hopefully some of these ludicrous over-regulations will be tempered by an injection of practical commonsense.
For example, presently there is virtually a moratorium on any "computer generated" performance data unless it is certified by the manufacturer to be JAA approved. In an airline with a "performance office", they have the resources to validate this data, and hence get it approved by the AOC authority. For small companies this is not a viable option, just as they cannot afford to employ all the required post-holders full-time, so have to pay 'consultant' personnel at exorbitant costs to meet their mandatory staffing level. When EU Ops2 is approved hopefully some of these ludicrous over-regulations will be tempered by an injection of practical commonsense.
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Pace wrote:
This is the second time among your prevoius posts Pace that I have noted you referring to this "in depth study." Perhaps you would be kind enough to point me in the precise direction of the source document that you refer to. Where can we find the conclusions of the study? It has little relavance to the topic being discussed, but as it is something that you like to bring up from time to time I am interested, especially as one who has CAA, JAA and FAA licences.
There was an in depth study on FAA V JAA Atps NO difference was found between the two on safety grounds
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I have seen no argument against considering lighter regulation, especially a split between different classes of operation, as is the case in the USA. However that is not the subject of the thread. The subject is aircraft being operated outside the legal authority and well-defined accountability of an AOC.
