Getting paid with FAA PPL on "N" jet.

[CirrusF]

Hello,

I have JAR ATPLf and FAA PPL.

I have the possibility of a job on an "N" Lear based in Europe. I can legally fly it with my FAA PPL (would need to add an FAA IR - but that is easy). But obviously I want to be paid to fly it. Is it legal for me to fly the aircraft with FAA PPL, and accept payment in Europe by virtue of my JAR CPL?

I know I could get an FAA CPL, but this would be at my own expense which I wish to avoid..

[pilotbear]

I am sure all your future fellow pilots would love to advise you how to to be paid without the proper licenses that we have had to study, pay for and endure. FAA IR easy eh?

I was going to start my answer 'with all due respect' but couldn't bring myself to write it

[malc4d]

I believe the answer is NO........ As far as l know, you will need minimum a CPL/IR plus a sic type rating......

[Cough]

From FAR 61.113, priveledges of a PPL:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event flight described in §91.146, if the sponsor and pilot comply with the requirements of §91.146.

(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses that are directly related to search and location operations, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees, and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and control of:

(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or

(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.

(f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least 200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer.

(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997, as amended by Amdt. 61–110, 69 FR 44869, July 27, 2004; Amdt. 61–115, 72 FR 6910, Feb. 13, 2007]

Also, if your FAA PPL is issued on the back of your CAA ATPL, then have a read of this AAIB report which has a few comments on the matter.

[Flintstone]

So can we expect to see JAA FOI's sharpening their pencils and loitering around airports awaiting a 'N' registered Lear?

I thought not

[SNS3Guppy]

You may not fly for compensation or hire on a FAA private pilot certificate.

[CirrusF]

OK, I thought not but worth checking. Now how about this scenario. Until I did my JAR ATPLf, I was skipper of the yacht also owned by the Lear owner. Can he employ me as yacht manager (which would genuinely be the case when not flying), and then I fly the Lear for free on my FAA PPL?

BTW I wasn't being dismissive of the FAA IR - fact is that with JAR IR and FAA PPL (which is standalone) it is very easy to get the FAA IR, without even the hassle of going to USA. The FAA CPL, however, requires all the hassle of going to a US flight school which I would prefer to avoid.

[con-pilot]

OK, I thought not but worth checking. Now how about this scenario. Until I did my JAR ATPLf, I was skipper of the yacht also owned by the Lear owner. Can he employ me as yacht manager (which would genuinely be the case when not flying), and then I fly the Lear for free on my FAA PPL?

Interesting question, I would say no. Then again you just might get away with it, however, I believe that the insurance company would have a very hard time approving you to do so. In any case you must have a type rating in the Lear. If your boss hired a FAA ATP Lear Captain you possibly could fly as a FAA PPL co-pilot if you have a type rating in the Lear, or a SIC Type Rating in the Lear. Again, it would be up to the insurance company and if your boss is willing to pay the much higher premium for a PPL to act as SIC.

I would recommend that you check with your insurance company first, before you take any action.

[Cough]

OK, I thought not but worth checking. Now how about this scenario. Until I did my JAR ATPLf, I was skipper of the yacht also owned by the Lear owner. Can he employ me as yacht manager (which would genuinely be the case when not flying), and then I fly the Lear for free on my FAA PPL?

Just suppose that one or two of the passengers in the Lear paid to be there (one way or another, you may not be aware of the details), then the flight was for reward, despite the fact that you are not being compensated for the flight. Thus it would be (IMHO) not legal.

What you have to ask yourself is, can I stand up in front of the best lawyer in the world and defend the fact that I only have a PPL? With the JAA CPL would getting a FAA CPL realy be that difficult?

[spacecadet]

I think the answer is a big no.

If you reverse the question, ie you had an FAA ATPL & a CAA PPL could you fly a G reg Lear jet & get paid for it?

If the job offer interests you that much, go to the US and get the licence & ratings.

I also think the FAA IR test will suprise you, I thought it was harder than the JAA one!

[CirrusF]

Cough, aircraft would be used entirely privately, only pax are friends of owner. The owner himself flies the a/c with just FAA PPL/IR - and has flown it and his preceding aircraft for some twenty odd years with just PPL/IR. I'd have no problem showing that I was indeed the manager of the owner's yacht as I have the correct quals and copies of all the logbooks to show that I was formerly skipper on his yacht, and did indeed manage it for a year or so. Owner's insurance are happy for me to fly the plane with FAA PPL - as far as they are concerned I have a CPL and it does not matter to them whether it is JAA or FAA from an insurance point of view.

Maybe the FAA CPL would not be "difficult" - but it would certainly involve a fair amount of time and expense, not least the hassle of getting the visas and paperwork for US flight schools.

[lemay]

Listen, Cirrus F,

as a private pilot, there is no f...... way you can fly any aircraft, be it a C172 or a LJ, for compensation! If you rented the airplane yourself and shared the operating cost, that would be another story. But even the sloppiest of lawyers would tear your story into pieces when it comes even to the smallest incident like blowing a tyre or bumping into something on the ramp. The insurances know the rules better than anyone. And they would find out, that you were not the gardener who incidentally sat in the cockpit because the boss just found out that you also had a pilot license... Capice?

And: for taking the instrument license, you either have to take the written test (IFP = 'instrument foreign pilot) which would give you this rating, based on your foreign license only (= this only counts for pilots with a validated license), or you have to do the entire checkride (incl. the written test). I doubt that there is any chance to perform this outside the US these days.

Get your commercial and instrument in 14 days - then you're good to go. And legal!

[Cough]

CirrusF,

Section C from the above FAR post contains...

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

So when the owner flies the aircraft, he is paying for it 100% and so can do whatever he wishes with the craft. When you operate and don't pay a thing with the paying owner sipping champers in the back then I think you could leave youself open.

I don't wish to tell you how/why but merely show you that there are a few things you have to consider.

Cheers, Cough

[CirrusF]

C172 or a LJ, for compensation! If you rented the airplane yourself and shared the operating cost, that would be another story. But even the sloppiest of lawyers would tear your story into pieces when it comes even to the smallest incident like blowing a tyre or bumping into something on the ramp. The insurances know the rules better than anyone. And they would find out, that you were not the gardener who incidentally sat in the cockpit because the boss just found out that you also had a pilot license...

I'm not convinced by that argument. If I had no contractual arrangement with the owner, with FAA PPL/IR and appropriate TR, AFAIK it would be perfectly legal for me to fly alongside him - just as any other PPL holding friends who go for a flight together in a privately owned plane. So if I am an employee of the owner, and have a contract with him as his yacht manager, and all the documentation to show that this is genuinely the case, how does that change the situation?

As I said earlier, the aircraft insurers are entirely happy with the arrangement as described.

So if the insurance are happy, does it really matter? I'm pretty sure that my JAR licencing authority would not mind a jot (though I will check with them).

[SNS3Guppy]

OK, I thought not but worth checking. Now how about this scenario. Until I did my JAR ATPLf, I was skipper of the yacht also owned by the Lear owner. Can he employ me as yacht manager (which would genuinely be the case when not flying), and then I fly the Lear for free on my FAA PPL?

The issue isn't reward as in the UK, but for compensation or hire. The FAA has determined that compensation includes the logging of flight time...even logging the time will be construed as compensation.

Understand you're operating this aircraft outside the US. You'll require at least a SIC type rating in the aircraft. You're acting as a required crewmember. You receive compensation from the owner as his yacht skipper, and the idea that you can backdoor the compensation issue by saying that's what you get paid for, and not the flying just won't wash. The FAA doesn't buy it, and has provided as much in their chief counsel legal interpretations on the matter.

The FAA provides additional tests, such as determining if you were going to make the trip with or without the owner present. In other words, were you going there in the first place, and this is nothing more than an alternate means of getting there? No...you're going somewhere because the boss is going there, and this is part of your employment...it's compensation or hire, no matter how you slice it. Even donating the time...compensation or hire.

You could sidestep that part of the issue by sharing the costs...but you'd have to pay a pro-rata share of the cost of operating the airplane. You probably don't want to do that.

Look at it from a different perspective. Why not operate it from your ATPL? Your JAR ATPL will require a type rating in the airplane, too. This is time and expense; more than obtaining the commercial pilot certificate would require, in fact. I'm not familiar enough with the JAR regulation to know if you would be allowed to pilot an N registered airplane on your European certificates...but you can certainly pilot any other national registration on an FAA certificate, so far as the FAA is concerned (other country's regulations not withstanding). Does the regulation where you are operating require that you hold an FAA certificate to fly the N registered airplane outside the United States? The FAA doesn't care, nor require that a pilot hold a FAA certificate to fly an N registered airplane.

The question then might be why not make the arrangements to fly it on your ATPL?

The private pilot certificate in the US does not grant privileges of working for compensation or hire. Any other private pilot that flies along with your boss is subject to the same arrangements, including the requirement to obtain an SIC type rating (at a minimum) to act as a required crewmember in the Learjet. If you don't log the time and you don't accept any other compensation, and you can conclusively show that your flying with this individual is purely for fun and not in any way, shape, nor form connected with your employement (difficult to do, if this man is your boss), you may be able to get away with it, legally.

If you're going to fly as SIC, however, you ought to at a minimum be obtaining the proper training for the airplane and attending a course. You can get away with minimal training, an oral, and three bounces in the airplane (but must walk the paper into the FSDO for the SIC type...which may be a problem outside the US)...but if you're flying an advanced turbojet airplane you really should be going to FSI or Simuflite and doing it properly. If you go that route, get the commercial done while you're there, or get the ATP added on as part of the type ride, and you're done.

[CirrusF]

Thanks Guppy for that illuminating reply. Can you clarify this point some more:-

The FAA doesn't care, nor require that a pilot hold a FAA certificate to fly an N registered airplane.

The question then might be why not make the arrangements to fly it on your ATPL?

This was what I was inkling at with my first post. As I would be operating entirely in JAR regulated aerospace, common-sense suggests that it would be sounder practise to operate the flight according to JAR regulations. I don't know of anything in JAR regulations that prevents me operating a non-JAR aircraft for reward, as long as that country does not preclude it in their own regulations. So if, as you say, the FAA does not care, and the a/c insurance does not care, then where is the problem?

[SNS3Guppy]

The problem lies in the question as you've presented it. You indicated you wish to fly the airplane as a private pilot. You wish to do it under your FAA certification, which does not entitle you to act for compensation or hire.

You have indicated that you hold an ATPL. My question you then, is why you desire to operate the aircraft as a private pilot, on your FAA private pilot certificate, when you already hold an ATP certificate.

In order to operate the aircraft, you're going to need a SIC type rating for your FAA private, or if you intend to do it under your JAR certification, you'll need a type rating. This will be expensive.

You appear to have been asking if you can simply use your private pilot certificate instead, acting soley upon your FAA privileges. The answer is no. You appear to be asking because you have determined the cost and effort to obtain the necessary certification is unacceptable to you at this time. You can't do it under your private pilot certificate, as discussed. Can you do it, then, under your ATP? Are you able and willing to obtain the type rating necessary to act as SIC in the airplane?

So if, as you say, the FAA does not care, and the a/c insurance does not care, then where is the problem?

The FAA deeply cares about, and prohibits by regulation, acting as a required crewmember for compensation or hire on a private pilot certificate. That applies in the United States or abroad, and an aircraft of any registry, so long as you do so on the authority and privilege of your FAA certificate. You are always subject to the FAA regulation governing your certificate, including the privileges upon which it is based.

The FAA does not care about, and has no regulation to prevent your acting as PIC or SIC of an N registered aircraft as an ATP...even though it's not an FAA ATP. You've indicated you hold an ATP. Why don't you operate the aircraft as an ATP, then?

[NZ X man]

PPL on a lear

Hay Mate, you have to have a SIC type rating endorsement on your license to operate ANY "N" registered aircraft internationally as sic
END OF Story, sorry

[mutt]

Guppy,

He stated that he held a JAR ATPLf . This is basically a CPL with the written exams for the ATP, he will have around 200 hrs.

CirrusF, you arent licenced to fly the aircraft on your FAA PPL, and if you decided to use the JAA CPL, then you cant use the ratings, so once again you arent licenced to fly the aircraft.

Strongly suggest you go the USA and get an FAA validation on the strength of the JAA CPL. The Lear will kill you if you dont get trained on it, so you can combine the SIC type rating check ride with the CPL checkride.

Mutt

[CirrusF]

Thanks for the help - does look like I'll just have to bite the bullet and visit the septics again.