Future of NetJets (Europe) ?!?
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Future of NetJets (Europe) ?!?
What do you in general think about the future of NetJets (especially NetJets Europe) ? Has the Jet-Sharing concept already proven to work out ? For FlexJet it did not work out unfortunately 
I am looking for a new job, and what is my paramount of importance is that the job is safe in regard of the company still existing in 10 years or so. I dont want to change jobs all the time...
When I think about the lifestyle flying for NetJets I feel it could suit me, but when I think about 1000 Pilots losing maybe their job at the same time that frightens me as well
There is so much talk about NetJets (good and bad) that I am totally weird
I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window ?
What will happen to the last pilots hired (If I join now my seniority number as far as I heard would be above 1000) if the amount of flights stays like it is for the time beeing ?
Maybe you can share your own thoughts with me to make my descision to join or not to join a bit easier. There is still some time until the INDOC Course and signing the Contract.
I am looking for a new job, and what is my paramount of importance is that the job is safe in regard of the company still existing in 10 years or so. I dont want to change jobs all the time...
When I think about the lifestyle flying for NetJets I feel it could suit me, but when I think about 1000 Pilots losing maybe their job at the same time that frightens me as well
There is so much talk about NetJets (good and bad) that I am totally weird
I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window ?
What will happen to the last pilots hired (If I join now my seniority number as far as I heard would be above 1000) if the amount of flights stays like it is for the time beeing ?
Maybe you can share your own thoughts with me to make my descision to join or not to join a bit easier. There is still some time until the INDOC Course and signing the Contract.
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This is aviation. Nothing is certain anymore. If you want to start in a company that will be around for another 10 years then I suggest you start your own and then work hard to make sure it stays in business.
Good luck with your choice!
od
Good luck with your choice!
od
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Aviation is running on a 10 years sine wave, growing for 10 descending for another 10 and so on....If you want a secure job, do not get into aviation 
Risk is everywhere, ask the ex-Sabena or ex-Swiss; country flag carriers if they imagined their company to collapse literally overnight...
As a pilot you will find jobs in Asia, if you need to work, as a lifestyle you have private individuals or time share owners..Netjets is spreading the risk across a large number of customers hence a little better for forecasting.
You are saying that the level of flying today is not good...Are you a Netjets insider trying to convince himself that he/she should accept this Vueling position? Or A future pilot trying to make a decision about leaving this same Vueling position ?
At Netjets, pilots are in line with the amount of shares being sold, same for aircrafts coming in, managing a company is a long term project not an averreaction everytime someone is farting on the other side of the universe. Let the top management to manage; the middle management to paddle ;and the pilots to fly.
Nobody can make a decision for you, but if you join today ANY company you will have the last seniority number, or no number at all...Netjets or Iberia or Lufthansa...all the same, I believe in any company LIFO is the rule when lay-offs are in the pipe...
Have fun
Risk is everywhere, ask the ex-Sabena or ex-Swiss; country flag carriers if they imagined their company to collapse literally overnight...
As a pilot you will find jobs in Asia, if you need to work, as a lifestyle you have private individuals or time share owners..Netjets is spreading the risk across a large number of customers hence a little better for forecasting.
You are saying that the level of flying today is not good...Are you a Netjets insider trying to convince himself that he/she should accept this Vueling position? Or A future pilot trying to make a decision about leaving this same Vueling position ?
At Netjets, pilots are in line with the amount of shares being sold, same for aircrafts coming in, managing a company is a long term project not an averreaction everytime someone is farting on the other side of the universe. Let the top management to manage; the middle management to paddle ;and the pilots to fly.
Nobody can make a decision for you, but if you join today ANY company you will have the last seniority number, or no number at all...Netjets or Iberia or Lufthansa...all the same, I believe in any company LIFO is the rule when lay-offs are in the pipe...
Have fun
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Your reference to BH was a little strange. It is a very successful group and I would say that they didnt become so successful by throwing money away or buying into companies or ideas which are unlikely to make money.
So, I would rest assured that NJ has excellent backing.
Safety of your job, you take your chances with any company that you join these days and NJ is no more of a risk that anything else, perhaps less of a risk because the economic downturn which the world is experiencing currently tends to effect the very rich (NJ customers) less than the majority.
Your seniority with NJ, it will be around the 1000 pilot mark if you join, but you will be at the bottom of the list of whatever company you join, so that shouldnt be a factor.
To be honest, your reasons are quite weak and I would rather recommend you look at the package NJ offers and if it suits you take it, if it doesnt-dont.
Fairly simple in reality.
So, I would rest assured that NJ has excellent backing.
Safety of your job, you take your chances with any company that you join these days and NJ is no more of a risk that anything else, perhaps less of a risk because the economic downturn which the world is experiencing currently tends to effect the very rich (NJ customers) less than the majority.
Your seniority with NJ, it will be around the 1000 pilot mark if you join, but you will be at the bottom of the list of whatever company you join, so that shouldnt be a factor.
To be honest, your reasons are quite weak and I would rather recommend you look at the package NJ offers and if it suits you take it, if it doesnt-dont.
Fairly simple in reality.
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SpainFly,
As previous posts have said, aviation prediction is not a precise science! Whoever you apply to will hold an element of risk, but I think NJE is as safe as any.
If you're thinking about NJE, I recommend that you apply - there's no guarantee you'll be accepted. If you are, you still can decide whether to accept the offer or not and you'll have found out a lot more about the company.
Its not clear if you have successfully been through the recruitment process or not, you talk about your Indoc date, but if you have not........I don't wish to be rude but if your spoken english is the same standard as your written english, then I suspect you would not get through the Interview and English Language tests anyway.
Good luck, I know its not an easy decision.
spaniel
As previous posts have said, aviation prediction is not a precise science! Whoever you apply to will hold an element of risk, but I think NJE is as safe as any.
If you're thinking about NJE, I recommend that you apply - there's no guarantee you'll be accepted. If you are, you still can decide whether to accept the offer or not and you'll have found out a lot more about the company.
Its not clear if you have successfully been through the recruitment process or not, you talk about your Indoc date, but if you have not........I don't wish to be rude but if your spoken english is the same standard as your written english, then I suspect you would not get through the Interview and English Language tests anyway.
Good luck, I know its not an easy decision.
spaniel
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Well it seems like SpainFly is up for the INDOC the way I see it?? I don’t know about the required English level for joining NJE but you can’t expect every non native English speaker to be as good as you are Spaniel? How good is your Spanish? French? German? The second language level for UK people in general is rubbish. And I’m smirking every time someone in our company is trying to pronounce one of our Spanish pilot’s names. Talk about poor accent when you still are using your English way of saying words but in Spanish. Sorry for being off topic…but this is an open forum for everybody, no matter if you are speaking queen's English or not and it’s quite hard to judge someone’s work language proficiency in a forum like this. Please don’t make comments like that…it doesn’t encourage non-English speakers like SpainFly and myself to make any comments and questions at all!
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BNflyer: couldn't have said it better! (maybe because my first language isn't english either! 
)
Just pulled that from the NE website:
...like you said, very few among us speak two languages like their native tounge!
couldn't have said it better! (maybe because my first language isn't english either! )Just pulled that from the NE website:
Preferred profile and skills
- Extensive European flight experience
- Command time advantageous
- Strong JAR OPS commercial aviation background
- Military or airline training
- Excellent interpersonal skills
- Multi-crew experience (500 hours)
- Flexible attitude, and
- Knowledge of two or more European languages
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Empires of the likes of BH don't get where they are, by giving money away.
If employees are sitting at home too long and not earning their keep, the axe will be sharpened.
Who's job is safe then? Nobodies in or out of aviation.
If employees are sitting at home too long and not earning their keep, the axe will be sharpened.
Who's job is safe then? Nobodies in or out of aviation.
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Thanks to all of you for your answers so far.
I share the opinion, that empires like BH are not that successful because of wasting money.
At the other hand, what I read in the press so far about Mr. Buffet impressed me pretty much. I find him very special in a good way. I mean I do of course not know him personally, but he seems to be sympathic man who has not lost focus on reality (like many other ppls with thick wallets).
Sorry for the confusion within my initial post, to make it clearer: I am not yet assigned to any INDOC Course. I meant it that way that there is still a lot of time until I would be in an INDOC after passing the selections.
I know there is a good chance to fail. But thats the same in any other company as well. So I try to think positive.
I was not even aware that my english is that bad Actually I was pretty convinced its more or less ok. I know that a english test is part of the selection as well, is it that difficult ? 
I share the opinion, that empires like BH are not that successful because of wasting money.
At the other hand, what I read in the press so far about Mr. Buffet impressed me pretty much. I find him very special in a good way. I mean I do of course not know him personally, but he seems to be sympathic man who has not lost focus on reality (like many other ppls with thick wallets).
Sorry for the confusion within my initial post, to make it clearer: I am not yet assigned to any INDOC Course. I meant it that way that there is still a lot of time until I would be in an INDOC after passing the selections.
I know there is a good chance to fail. But thats the same in any other company as well. So I try to think positive.
I was not even aware that my english is that bad
Actually I was pretty convinced its more or less ok. I know that a english test is part of the selection as well, is it that difficult ?
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BNflyer
....tell you what, when NJTA start publishing SOPs in Spanish, then I'll start worrying about my Spanish accent. A good level of English is essential in NJTA and Spaniel is right to point that out.
....tell you what, when NJTA start publishing SOPs in Spanish, then I'll start worrying about my Spanish accent. A good level of English is essential in NJTA and Spaniel is right to point that out.
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"I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window?"
Sorry, Barkshire Hathaway not that sucessful. My goodness, what would you call sucessful. It's the 14th biggest business in the world.
Company value of 150 Billion and 46 Billion CASH in the bank and the price of ONE SINGLE SHARE $127,000. Similar value to Shell and more in assets, think you might want to re-think the statement!! 46 BILLION IN CASH
Don't take my word for it, go to Forbes.com and have a look. Not sure where you get the information from that they are throwing money out of the window.
Sorry, Barkshire Hathaway not that sucessful. My goodness, what would you call sucessful. It's the 14th biggest business in the world.
Company value of 150 Billion and 46 Billion CASH in the bank and the price of ONE SINGLE SHARE $127,000. Similar value to Shell and more in assets, think you might want to re-think the statement!! 46 BILLION IN CASH
Don't take my word for it, go to Forbes.com and have a look. Not sure where you get the information from that they are throwing money out of the window.
Last edited by Smeagels Boyfriend; 14th Jun 2008 at 22:45.
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SpainFly.
I'm uncertain as to whether you're either incredibly naieve or a troll. If the former then I'm sure that's a winner with the opposite sex. If the latter then it's a poor attempt.
As Smeagel's Lover wrote, BH is incrediby successful and I can see no way how you could think otherwise. As for having a seniority number in the thousands, that's your choice.
I'm uncertain as to whether you're either incredibly naieve or a troll. If the former then I'm sure that's a winner with the opposite sex. If the latter then it's a poor attempt.
As Smeagel's Lover wrote, BH is incrediby successful and I can see no way how you could think otherwise. As for having a seniority number in the thousands, that's your choice.
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"I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window ?"
I think SpainFly meant to say that BH didn't get to be a big and successful mother company by throwing money out of the window. In otherwords, if NJE at some point in the future started bleeding cash, BH wouldn't wouldn't continue to support the business model.
Personally, I think BH have done their homework and have a fine product and will continue to be successful. As mentioned before, aviation has turbulence! I think NJ can safely navigate most of the turbulence, but some will feel the bumps more than others!
Cheers!
I think SpainFly meant to say that BH didn't get to be a big and successful mother company by throwing money out of the window. In otherwords, if NJE at some point in the future started bleeding cash, BH wouldn't wouldn't continue to support the business model.
Personally, I think BH have done their homework and have a fine product and will continue to be successful. As mentioned before, aviation has turbulence! I think NJ can safely navigate most of the turbulence, but some will feel the bumps more than others!
Cheers!
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Mmmm could have been lost in translation, and i can see the following point that should NJE start to suffer financially would BH pull out. Personally I would be very surprised, i suspect it may take many years of substantial losses for them to walk away. They have only just started to make money over the last couple of years after losses, and they will definatly want a return on their investment.
Furthermore they are contractually obligated to the owners to provide a service for a given contract length, so Mr Rich and Mrs Absolutly Loaded are not going to let them get away with that without some financial penalty.
In summary i think if BH walked away from Netjets most people will have packed up shop and gone home long before. 46 Bill takes some spending (i imagine!!) and thats before Mr Buffett puts his hand down the back of his sofa to rumage for his own stack of cash (another 30 bill). The amount of cash BH has at it's disposal is staggering.
SB
Furthermore they are contractually obligated to the owners to provide a service for a given contract length, so Mr Rich and Mrs Absolutly Loaded are not going to let them get away with that without some financial penalty.
In summary i think if BH walked away from Netjets most people will have packed up shop and gone home long before. 46 Bill takes some spending (i imagine!!) and thats before Mr Buffett puts his hand down the back of his sofa to rumage for his own stack of cash (another 30 bill). The amount of cash BH has at it's disposal is staggering.
SB
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A word of caution: Warren Buffet did not become the richest man in the world by allowing his companies to loose beyond a point where his entire fortune is jeopardised.
Supposedly all of NetJets is now profitalble, but should it become necessary to shut down operations (that would take some time of constant losses without a doubt - another 9/11 springs to mind), Mrs Absolutely Loaded can STILL use that as a tax write off and wouldn't loose a dime - even though it might show up on a different position on the tax return: moved from "business expense" to "loss resulting from business investment"
Supposedly all of NetJets is now profitalble, but should it become necessary to shut down operations (that would take some time of constant losses without a doubt - another 9/11 springs to mind), Mrs Absolutely Loaded can STILL use that as a tax write off and wouldn't loose a dime - even though it might show up on a different position on the tax return: moved from "business expense" to "loss resulting from business investment"
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I have heard that NetJets business model requires a fleet of 100 to be profitable. NetJets Europe reached 100 aircraft in 2006 and posted a profit that year. The profit tripled in 2007. They will receive 39 new aircraft in 2008 and accelerated the delivery schedule on all of them. They have 24 Hawker 4000s on order, 33 Falcon 7-Xs, an increase of 9 from their initial $1.1 Billion order. They bought 17 Gulfstream 550s last year and can't get their hands on enough because it is a hot seller. They just ordered a bunch of Falcon 2000s as well, I think 24 of them. All told, they have $2.5 Billion in outstanding aircraft orders and will receive $750 Million worth in 2008.
They have two kinds of customers, multi-millionaires and billionaires. These people are not fuel price sensitive and they have a five year contract, so a complete halt in sales would still leave them in business for a few years steady state with a large enough fleet to remain in the black.
Besides, I am willing to bet a good bunch of their owners trade commodities and are getting even wealthier off of the oil price hikes. When the economy is poor, the wealthy use their money to buy investments on the cheap, just like Warren Buffet and BH do and they need their jets to travel around closing the deals.
As for another 9/11, it will drive customers away from traditional airlines, but the wealthier ones will buy a NetJets share. Privacy, safety and security are some of the top reasons they buy a NetJet share in the first place, that plus the sexy ramp presence of a Gulf Stream.
For those razzing SpainFly about his English, it certainly seems good enough to me. I've met a few NetJets FOs who were worse. I had no trouble understanding what he meant about BH pulling the plug if the operation starts bleeding red ink. I just don't think it will.
They have two kinds of customers, multi-millionaires and billionaires. These people are not fuel price sensitive and they have a five year contract, so a complete halt in sales would still leave them in business for a few years steady state with a large enough fleet to remain in the black.
Besides, I am willing to bet a good bunch of their owners trade commodities and are getting even wealthier off of the oil price hikes. When the economy is poor, the wealthy use their money to buy investments on the cheap, just like Warren Buffet and BH do and they need their jets to travel around closing the deals.
As for another 9/11, it will drive customers away from traditional airlines, but the wealthier ones will buy a NetJets share. Privacy, safety and security are some of the top reasons they buy a NetJet share in the first place, that plus the sexy ramp presence of a Gulf Stream.
For those razzing SpainFly about his English, it certainly seems good enough to me. I've met a few NetJets FOs who were worse. I had no trouble understanding what he meant about BH pulling the plug if the operation starts bleeding red ink. I just don't think it will.
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Flintstone
You beat me to it!
Adios
Great stuff indeed!
I am trying to work out whether, you have just completed the initial indoc or just come off an advanced re current indoc., which has certainly had the desired effect, from a NJE point of view. Of that there is no doubt.
"Privacy, safety and security are some of the top reasons they buy a NetJet share in the first place, that plus the sexy ramp presence of a Gulfstream."
Do I take it from the above sentence, other companies, charter or airline, are not safe but Netjets are???
Not quite so good when the sexy G550 is on the ramp but "I own a share, for a limited period of time, not the whole aircraft".
Are you wearing dark rose tinted glasses or been looking through a red wine glass too often?
You beat me to it!
Adios
Great stuff indeed!
I am trying to work out whether, you have just completed the initial indoc or just come off an advanced re current indoc., which has certainly had the desired effect, from a NJE point of view. Of that there is no doubt.
"Privacy, safety and security are some of the top reasons they buy a NetJet share in the first place, that plus the sexy ramp presence of a Gulfstream."
Do I take it from the above sentence, other companies, charter or airline, are not safe but Netjets are???
Not quite so good when the sexy G550 is on the ramp but "I own a share, for a limited period of time, not the whole aircraft".
Are you wearing dark rose tinted glasses or been looking through a red wine glass too often?
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Gents,
I guess that does sound a bit like an advert. The point is that I think they will be around, which is what SpainFly is wondering. I think it's a better bet job security wise than many of the traditional airlines would be.
As for safety, I mention that in the context of terrorism. If there is another 9/11 type event, I think NetJets will see a sales spike as people look for a way to travel that is safer from terrorism and hijacking. Taking a private flight with no strangers aboard is likely to be viewed as a hell of a lot safer than a commercial flight with lord knows who on board. If I am correct about this, then a NetJets pilot will have better job security post terror strike than say the pilots of the victimized airline will.
It would be nice to own an entire Gulf Stream, but I'm not so sure operating and maintaining it would be so nice.
I guess that does sound a bit like an advert. The point is that I think they will be around, which is what SpainFly is wondering. I think it's a better bet job security wise than many of the traditional airlines would be.
As for safety, I mention that in the context of terrorism. If there is another 9/11 type event, I think NetJets will see a sales spike as people look for a way to travel that is safer from terrorism and hijacking. Taking a private flight with no strangers aboard is likely to be viewed as a hell of a lot safer than a commercial flight with lord knows who on board. If I am correct about this, then a NetJets pilot will have better job security post terror strike than say the pilots of the victimized airline will.
It would be nice to own an entire Gulf Stream, but I'm not so sure operating and maintaining it would be so nice.
Last edited by Adios; 16th Jun 2008 at 21:03.