Future of NetJets (Europe) ?!?
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I have not laughed so much in while.... SpainFly has a big chip on his shoulder but NO clue about how NJ or NJE works and what is currently going on...
They have increased the salary both in the US and Europe and last week signed a contract for another 40 Gulfstreams on top of the 33 7X's 
Maybe a better idea to focus on the imploding Spanish aviation market with companies like Vueling and the like!
aeroncaman
If you just read the annual report of Berkshire Hathaway you don't have to "rumour" that it is "a widely held believe" the figures are for everybody there to see and have been there for 3 years!!!! 
The company is now in their 13th year and 3rd profitable years. 
Look what happened in US and you will see the same here . Job cuts , reducing salary .
Maybe a better idea to focus on the imploding Spanish aviation market with companies like Vueling and the like!
aeroncaman
It was a widely held belief that NJE did not turn a profit for 10 years; I heard figures of losses to the tune of 212 million USD, although I am not sure if this is true.
The company is now in their 13th year and 3rd profitable years.
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Any fool
Just because you don't have all the information and fail to understand, does not mean that others are not more in the know than you.
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aeroncaman If I go into business and loose 212 million USD in my first year of trading, that loss is carried forward as a debt/borrowing or lost invested capital. In my second year I need to make 212 million USD back, before I turn a profit, and get back to where I was.
To state that NJE has been profitable for 3 years, does not mean anything unless the previous losses are taken into account. Any fool can go into business if they are propped up by a cash cow. That is not real business.
Are we missing something?
To state that NJE has been profitable for 3 years, does not mean anything unless the previous losses are taken into account. Any fool can go into business if they are propped up by a cash cow. That is not real business.
Are we missing something?
Read again, carefully the articles about Netjets Europe and the interaction with BKH; read the shareholder convention minutes in Ohama this year. It is easier, everything is public. WB is the richest man in the world, it is not by blogging on the Internet; look at the companies in BKH galaxy.
For the European operation they were talking about cumulative loss in operation, in other terms, how much money that was invested did not come back yet. Do you have any idea of the amount of money one would need to create a Netjets Models in Europe ? aircrafts availibility set aside; the figure has 9 zeros.....
Totally agree, if you are a pilot, (no doubt on an aeronca) stick with it; do not go into finance and mergers, it is gonna hurt.
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aeroncaman
CL300 - thank you for the quick resort to sarcasm. Perhaps you could use some of your superior knowledge to put this idiot bedfordshire aeronca pilot out of his misery, with a simplified answer.
CL300 - thank you for the quick resort to sarcasm. Perhaps you could use some of your superior knowledge to put this idiot bedfordshire aeronca pilot out of his misery, with a simplified answer.
If you want to know the true insid, please join the inside..We need people in lisbon...
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the future?
netjets have dragged themselves into 'profit' on the back of strong usa business economy, a rising eu market and a fashionable brand image to attract the uninitiated new user.
brand images can wane or become unfashionable (its happening slowly now to netjets brand as users become more educated and wake up and smell the coffee) jet markets are cooling, the us parent economy is suffering, and the bizjet wave they rode in the last 3 years is slowing.
also they never had serious eu competition, now vistajet and other major eu operators are becoming large and serious concerns with more power than flexjet/skyjet to compete (flexjet/skyjet being the only other serious netjets competitor originally) they no longer have a monopoly.
add all this changing environment up and if i was at netjets senior management i would be a tad concerned. lets review in 3 years and see what has happened...i have my views...
biggest challenge for them is the fact that their brand and product has a growth and stagnation life cycle just like every other branded product. as users are now much more informed about the alternative choices and suppliers than they were 3 years ago and the market is now possibly saturated. its going to be interesting.
brand images can wane or become unfashionable (its happening slowly now to netjets brand as users become more educated and wake up and smell the coffee) jet markets are cooling, the us parent economy is suffering, and the bizjet wave they rode in the last 3 years is slowing.
also they never had serious eu competition, now vistajet and other major eu operators are becoming large and serious concerns with more power than flexjet/skyjet to compete (flexjet/skyjet being the only other serious netjets competitor originally) they no longer have a monopoly.
add all this changing environment up and if i was at netjets senior management i would be a tad concerned. lets review in 3 years and see what has happened...i have my views...
biggest challenge for them is the fact that their brand and product has a growth and stagnation life cycle just like every other branded product. as users are now much more informed about the alternative choices and suppliers than they were 3 years ago and the market is now possibly saturated. its going to be interesting.
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CL300,
usually your replies are well educated and informative.
I have to say that this time you lowered yourself to a level never seen before...
The man was just looking for an answer, no need to shoot him down like this!
usually your replies are well educated and informative.
I have to say that this time you lowered yourself to a level never seen before...
The man was just looking for an answer, no need to shoot him down like this!
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shneidertrophy CL300,
usually your replies are well educated and informative.
I have to say that this time you lowered yourself to a level never seen before...
The man was just looking for an answer, no need to shoot him down like this!
usually your replies are well educated and informative.
I have to say that this time you lowered yourself to a level never seen before...
The man was just looking for an answer, no need to shoot him down like this!
Not reached the bottom yet, I can go very bad and dark...
My sour comment ( not acid yet) is a quick answer to pilots who think they can be managers, just because they DO the job. A bit like a train driver that would interfere in the dynamics of an High speed train.
UNLESS provided with proper training, pilots are not managers therefore they can go on complaining for ever, but they should really stick to their jobs : Flying.
I do not know anyone in this forum posting regularly that can position himself as a top manager from whom decision are taken for Netjets.
I'm spending my time educating people, when a query is legitimate and not driven by polemics, I'm more happy to call in. But when it is based on non-sense, I start with the .22 upwards.
Does someone ask the same thing for BA, LH,AF ?
Fly, study, rest, study, fly and stop speculating...
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I would rather be working for an established company that has the ability to consolidate as opposed to a company trying to get a foothold in the market in such stormy economic times.
Netjets is the market leader, after 10 years they have reached critical mass and if the company stops expanding the operation will remain profitable. Of course, the real money is made by selling new aircraft and cards. The management in London have all the skills in place to make it through the next few years. I think with a CV like MB’s, it would be hard to find a better manager.
Netjets is the market leader, after 10 years they have reached critical mass and if the company stops expanding the operation will remain profitable. Of course, the real money is made by selling new aircraft and cards. The management in London have all the skills in place to make it through the next few years. I think with a CV like MB’s, it would be hard to find a better manager.
MB is stepping down anyways...but he's a good person, I agree on that. Unfortunately, if you look at middle-management and "small" managers, then CL300's observation
is unfortunately true. Because these guys did not have training as well. Currently, there's a wave of people stepping down from their positions and they will be replaced with fresh people who will get this training.
...UNLESS provided with proper training, pilots are not managers therefore they can go on complaining for ever...
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SpainFly,
Netjets Europe is surely the safest bet when considering if a company will survive.
Warren Buffett has always invested in companys for the long term.
BH is a large umbrella and all the companies beneath it look after each other.
As an example, Flight Safety is part of BH. Training funds for pilots, engineers etc. stay under the BH umbrella. Netjets can afford to make a loss as really it is only BH moving money around.
When you consider some of the other BH groups such as insurance, how can Netjets fail to do better than any other Biz jet company?
Its not a level playing field and Netjets has the highest ground possible.
What do you in general think about the future of NetJets (especially NetJets Europe) ? Has the Jet-Sharing concept already proven to work out ? For FlexJet it did not work out unfortunately
Warren Buffett has always invested in companys for the long term.
BH is a large umbrella and all the companies beneath it look after each other.
As an example, Flight Safety is part of BH. Training funds for pilots, engineers etc. stay under the BH umbrella. Netjets can afford to make a loss as really it is only BH moving money around.
When you consider some of the other BH groups such as insurance, how can Netjets fail to do better than any other Biz jet company?
Its not a level playing field and Netjets has the highest ground possible.
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Here's a story on BH. Stock price is down from the all time high of nearly $150,000 per share on 10 Dec 2007. Many people think that makes the shares a bargain. Bloomberg.com: Worldwide
Quite a dramatic headline, but the article is mostly bullish on BH. I've seen the stock way down before only to go up almost 100% in the following 5 years. One analyst says the intrinsic value is $157,000 per share and it has made the intrinsic value 11 of the last 12 years.
At these prices, only wealthy individuals and institutions can afford the stock, which is ideal because these are the times small investors cut and run, yet these are the market conditions in which BH seems to perform best.
The most important line in the article is that Buffet buys companies whose management he trusts. The fact that he left Richard Santulli in place to manage NetJets shows this trust. The fact that Santulli stayed shows it is mutual. These are not the the typical actions of a venture capitalist who plans to flip a company for a fast buck. If that was the goal, he'd already have sold it. I think he's in for the long haul (pun intended).
Quite a dramatic headline, but the article is mostly bullish on BH. I've seen the stock way down before only to go up almost 100% in the following 5 years. One analyst says the intrinsic value is $157,000 per share and it has made the intrinsic value 11 of the last 12 years.
At these prices, only wealthy individuals and institutions can afford the stock, which is ideal because these are the times small investors cut and run, yet these are the market conditions in which BH seems to perform best.
The most important line in the article is that Buffet buys companies whose management he trusts. The fact that he left Richard Santulli in place to manage NetJets shows this trust. The fact that Santulli stayed shows it is mutual. These are not the the typical actions of a venture capitalist who plans to flip a company for a fast buck. If that was the goal, he'd already have sold it. I think he's in for the long haul (pun intended).
Last edited by Adios; 2nd Jul 2008 at 20:39.
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This is all fascinating stuff, however I think that we should remember that the long term goals of a company like BH are decided a long way above the pay scale of mere pilots and there is little chance that anyone outside of the senior managers of the company have any idea of the strategies of such an organisation. Anyone can speculate using information in the public domain such as oil prices but given that BH has a turnover similar to a small country and probably the political leverage of a much bigger one there will be many factors of which we are not aware and those who do know aren't saying. Did anyone predict George Soros' raid on sterling a few years back? certainly no one at my end of the food chain, these people move in circles outside of the everyday concerns of most of the rest of us. That may upset readers of the Guardian but is probably good for those in the employ of these corporations although I wouldn't for a minute imagine that the futures of a few thousand employees will give WB and his pals the slightest worry. The airlines are no different, they are just less good at it.
Aviation has always been up and down. The industry as a whole survived the oil shocks of the 70's which in real terms were far worse than what is happening now, it survived the 1991 gulf war,9/11, SARS and it will survive this current scenario whatever the gloom of the economists and the gleeful predictions of peak oil from the end of the world brigade. Whether any particular company will survive unscathed is another matter but hey, if you wanted a secure job for life you should have been an accountant or maybe a local government 'elf and safety inspector. Rich people will always travel.
Aviation has always been up and down. The industry as a whole survived the oil shocks of the 70's which in real terms were far worse than what is happening now, it survived the 1991 gulf war,9/11, SARS and it will survive this current scenario whatever the gloom of the economists and the gleeful predictions of peak oil from the end of the world brigade. Whether any particular company will survive unscathed is another matter but hey, if you wanted a secure job for life you should have been an accountant or maybe a local government 'elf and safety inspector. Rich people will always travel.
Thread Starter
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Strange, I just three days ago received again a PM from the same Guy as before 
Hello ,
I am new also on pprune and this is my turn sorry for the late answer
Yes , they fired many pilots in the States but that was ( already ) 5 years ago and they reduce consequently salary during a long period .... they just rise the pay , last year ....
I got all those information from Lisbonnes but off course , i think you can verify that on archives of the Washington Post or Herald Tribune .
The main probleme of this system is because is base on a constant growing market . As soon as market reach saturation or slowing down , then you're in trouble . Because they don't do profit with hours of flight like any other company , they do profit by salling aircraft .
Even worse , NJE is one of the most expensive company regarding the cost by hour .... about 6000 euros for one hour of flight and the market is around 3000 euros/hours ....
So i think , the clash will come .... and personnaly i am on the way to move .... i don't want to be there at that time
Cheers .
Hello ,
I am new also on pprune and this is my turn sorry for the late answer
Yes , they fired many pilots in the States but that was ( already ) 5 years ago and they reduce consequently salary during a long period .... they just rise the pay , last year ....
I got all those information from Lisbonnes but off course , i think you can verify that on archives of the Washington Post or Herald Tribune .
The main probleme of this system is because is base on a constant growing market . As soon as market reach saturation or slowing down , then you're in trouble . Because they don't do profit with hours of flight like any other company , they do profit by salling aircraft .
Even worse , NJE is one of the most expensive company regarding the cost by hour .... about 6000 euros for one hour of flight and the market is around 3000 euros/hours ....
So i think , the clash will come .... and personnaly i am on the way to move .... i don't want to be there at that time
Cheers .
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This assesment is totally wrong and outdated, unfortunately i cannot comment on the real business plan, but you have to trust me on this, this contact is talking cheat...
What i can say though is that Netjets customers are only paying for occupied hours....ie they do not pay for the ferry, ( yes even on transatlantic)
What i can say though is that Netjets customers are only paying for occupied hours....ie they do not pay for the ferry, ( yes even on transatlantic)
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I may be mistaken, but whilst in BOD today I could have sworn I saw a 7X in the new NetJets scheme outside the Falcon factory, with another couple with it looking like they were just about to get painted?
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What i can say though is that Netjets customers are only paying for occupied hours....ie they do not pay for the ferry, ( yes even on transatlantic)
There are contracts where you do not pay for transatlantic ferries but on those contracts you pay all handling costs even in europe.
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Pilots future....
Well just got some news the other day that again I think should be available for everybody wanting to join or think that there is a future for you in the company....
Upgrades at least 18 months even if you have entered with 15K hrs +, they have a very long waiting list....
Fleet change to nice airplanes : time undetermined
Pension : none
Again BA, Airfrance and Lufthansa disadvantages without the advantages...think very wisely before you want to join....you will have a big salary cut and it wo'nt be for a couple of months.
To those who will come back and say it is not true....guess who will be telling the thruth?????
Again, nothing personal but just letting people know what they can expect...
All have a nice Sunday
Upgrades at least 18 months even if you have entered with 15K hrs +, they have a very long waiting list....
Fleet change to nice airplanes : time undetermined
Pension : none
Again BA, Airfrance and Lufthansa disadvantages without the advantages...think very wisely before you want to join....you will have a big salary cut and it wo'nt be for a couple of months.
To those who will come back and say it is not true....guess who will be telling the thruth?????
Again, nothing personal but just letting people know what they can expect...
All have a nice Sunday
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I think you'll find that all the regular posters here that work for NetJets will and have been the first to agree that upgrade times have gone up. But as to comparing that to BA or Lufthansa etc....well I think there would be a great number of very happy SFOs if upgrade times went down to 18 months! Besides trust me when I say that 18 months is probably a much better period of time for someone to get comfortable in this type of operation before being launched alone and unafraid in the LHS.
Agree about the Pension - we have been very patient and they have let us down very badly. Still never give management the benefit of the doubt....as my old gran used to say.
Agree about the Pension - we have been very patient and they have let us down very badly. Still never give management the benefit of the doubt....as my old gran used to say.
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Pension is available if UK based, still trying to work through the complexities of a pan european system for everyone else. That is more due to the differing pension legislation across the EU than any dastardly conspiracy on the part of NJ management. Time to command is 18 months to 2 years depending on the economic outlook, just like everyone else. In the meantime "nice" aircraft are available to all unless you consider nice to be only over 136000kg in which case I wouldn't bother comming. No one joins for a particular type. Recruitment rumored to restart in the new year for those interested.