older aircraft
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As for 2 Captains on board every flight, this may not be as conducive to safety as it would first appear, statistically.
If one cares to go back and delve into accident/incident statistics over the years, some of the biggest f*****s have been when 2 Captains were flying together.
"Gradient" comes to mind.
If one cares to go back and delve into accident/incident statistics over the years, some of the biggest f*****s have been when 2 Captains were flying together.
"Gradient" comes to mind.
ZbV
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2 Captains
Definately not a good idea. Unless ofcourse the are good friends a bit different then. Still there is only one "Commander" onboard meaning that one bears the responsibility. It must be clear all times who the person in charge is.
Just a comment reading some of the posts here. It is strange how some of the NJE pilots feel that they are something special. I am sure that there are a lot of good things in the company but there is no company in the world that does not have some downsides in them.
Some time ago on a layover I sat at the bar with many NJE crews in the same hotel and naturally the bar. Well so happens that I knew one of them a nice guy. Professional to the core etc. You have no idea how many times I was asked when I would be applying to NJE. The surprise in their face when I told them that I was not interested in the least. I've heard the stories from inside and as it is many of my friends fly there. It is not for me, thats for sure.
Just a comment reading some of the posts here. It is strange how some of the NJE pilots feel that they are something special. I am sure that there are a lot of good things in the company but there is no company in the world that does not have some downsides in them.
Some time ago on a layover I sat at the bar with many NJE crews in the same hotel and naturally the bar. Well so happens that I knew one of them a nice guy. Professional to the core etc. You have no idea how many times I was asked when I would be applying to NJE. The surprise in their face when I told them that I was not interested in the least. I've heard the stories from inside and as it is many of my friends fly there. It is not for me, thats for sure.
Last edited by JJflyer; 27th Apr 2008 at 04:56.
ZbV
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Brainwashing
It is funny you should mention that. It seems that it really is the case. Their indoc program seems to work on certain types of individuals and then again it does not work on others. As such the ones that can walk without blinds on their eyes and in euphoria on how great everything is, have a pretty good grasp of reality in general.
One of the people working with NJE whom I know is in heaven. Good for him. He sees nothing wrong and everything is just soooooo wonderful. It is a bit difficult to relate to that. Another just hated everything with NJE and ended up leaving. Well better happy somewhere else than miserable with the present job. I dont think though that NJE is totally bad. It is just like any other job. Has good and bad things. Good pilots and bad pilots and people that have sneaked through the system. Again a friend of mine flying with the company has managed to put it fairly well into perspective and provided me with a good view on what is actually working well and what does not. He likes some things and some he does not. Not a retirement job he says. I guess he would be one that the indoc or propaganda didnt quite work.
One of the people working with NJE whom I know is in heaven. Good for him. He sees nothing wrong and everything is just soooooo wonderful. It is a bit difficult to relate to that. Another just hated everything with NJE and ended up leaving. Well better happy somewhere else than miserable with the present job. I dont think though that NJE is totally bad. It is just like any other job. Has good and bad things. Good pilots and bad pilots and people that have sneaked through the system. Again a friend of mine flying with the company has managed to put it fairly well into perspective and provided me with a good view on what is actually working well and what does not. He likes some things and some he does not. Not a retirement job he says. I guess he would be one that the indoc or propaganda didnt quite work.
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Strange...
....I yet have to come across the "snobby" NetJets pilot. Most I meet are nice guys actually.
I was very NetJets sceptic, as they seem to swamp the market. Actually they have done something good to the market with all their advertising. And beyond any doubt they raised standards in executive aviation.
As for brokers, most of them advertise that they save cost and hassle to the client. They often do, however a lot of them just use the price as main agruement. Next thing they complain about is catering, aircraft age and maybe crewing/crew training standards. An airplane can make a certain amount of money an hours and the costs are given within cetain bounderies...
Now can 2 operators be very different in price when operating 2 similar airplanes out of the same airfield? Major point: crew. Had the situation when the CJ2 was new on the market, we operated the first in Europe and a contender had the second one just weeks after us. We had only employed pilots, they went trough FSI initial. The other operator had only freelancers and none of them was at FSI, they all did their rating on the airplane.
Guess who was cheaper? Guess who was sold by the brokers way more often?
At the end its the operators choice which way to go, but I´m convinced that a considerable part of NetJets success IS standards. Doesn´t mean they don´t make mistakes, given the sheer amount of flights they do every day, therer is little you hear about them in that respect. If I´d be rich, I would not worry about 500€/hr, I´d worry about qualification, experience,trainig and maintenance standards. Probably thats why I´m not rich...
I see FSI twice a year now that I fly coorperate, but my superiors whilst spending a lot of money on us guys in the front office, do use ANY available charter possibility when our airplane is booked out or in maintenance.
Does that make sense? Not to me, but I´m just the driver...
And that is one part of the dilemma in executive, to many without any knowledge of the subject involved in the booking.
But then, think about calling a taxi: IF you can get a new Merc instead of an used Vauxhall for the same price, what would you take?
I was very NetJets sceptic, as they seem to swamp the market. Actually they have done something good to the market with all their advertising. And beyond any doubt they raised standards in executive aviation.
As for brokers, most of them advertise that they save cost and hassle to the client. They often do, however a lot of them just use the price as main agruement. Next thing they complain about is catering, aircraft age and maybe crewing/crew training standards. An airplane can make a certain amount of money an hours and the costs are given within cetain bounderies...
Now can 2 operators be very different in price when operating 2 similar airplanes out of the same airfield? Major point: crew. Had the situation when the CJ2 was new on the market, we operated the first in Europe and a contender had the second one just weeks after us. We had only employed pilots, they went trough FSI initial. The other operator had only freelancers and none of them was at FSI, they all did their rating on the airplane.
Guess who was cheaper? Guess who was sold by the brokers way more often?
At the end its the operators choice which way to go, but I´m convinced that a considerable part of NetJets success IS standards. Doesn´t mean they don´t make mistakes, given the sheer amount of flights they do every day, therer is little you hear about them in that respect. If I´d be rich, I would not worry about 500€/hr, I´d worry about qualification, experience,trainig and maintenance standards. Probably thats why I´m not rich...
I see FSI twice a year now that I fly coorperate, but my superiors whilst spending a lot of money on us guys in the front office, do use ANY available charter possibility when our airplane is booked out or in maintenance.
Does that make sense? Not to me, but I´m just the driver...
And that is one part of the dilemma in executive, to many without any knowledge of the subject involved in the booking.
But then, think about calling a taxi: IF you can get a new Merc instead of an used Vauxhall for the same price, what would you take?
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2 Captains
Absolutely correct that 2 Captains not as good as proper well trained Captain and Co-Pilot. Only worse than 2 CAptains is 2 training Captains.
Well known accident about the G3 picking up George Busg Snr with 2 Captains (one about 68 and the other a youngster at about 63) Flew an ILS with the VOR tuned and followed the speed bug as a glideslope right into the ground. There last comment was something like "something does not look right!"
Absolutely correct that 2 Captains not as good as proper well trained Captain and Co-Pilot. Only worse than 2 CAptains is 2 training Captains.
Well known accident about the G3 picking up George Busg Snr with 2 Captains (one about 68 and the other a youngster at about 63) Flew an ILS with the VOR tuned and followed the speed bug as a glideslope right into the ground. There last comment was something like "something does not look right!"
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Captains
On a slightly separate, yet kinda connected...
I was at BQH a few weeks back and was stood by the main desk seeing off a flight. It is true I couldn't hear everything that was said but it went a lil somethin' like this....
There was a NetJet's captain stood waiting for what I thought were passengers by the main desk, then another Captain introduced himself to the awaiting crew member and said "Good morning, I am 'Capt Whatever' so we're together for the Chambery flight this morning".
Small point and naturally both Captains would have been extremely qualified and both professional, but I thought it was interesting that these two guys had seemingly never flown together from what I could gather, they were both Captains and travelling to a fairly tricky airport. I understand that when you fly with major airlines (BA, etc etc etc) the Captains probably have never flown together either but I bet NetJets don't advertise that in their sales pitch
Not really on the same theme but thought it was interesting nevertheless.
I was at BQH a few weeks back and was stood by the main desk seeing off a flight. It is true I couldn't hear everything that was said but it went a lil somethin' like this....
There was a NetJet's captain stood waiting for what I thought were passengers by the main desk, then another Captain introduced himself to the awaiting crew member and said "Good morning, I am 'Capt Whatever' so we're together for the Chambery flight this morning".
Small point and naturally both Captains would have been extremely qualified and both professional, but I thought it was interesting that these two guys had seemingly never flown together from what I could gather, they were both Captains and travelling to a fairly tricky airport. I understand that when you fly with major airlines (BA, etc etc etc) the Captains probably have never flown together either but I bet NetJets don't advertise that in their sales pitch
Not really on the same theme but thought it was interesting nevertheless.
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As a broker it is frustrating when clients won't charter anything less than 5years old, especially when the quibble about price so much aswell! We all know that there is not a direct correlation between age of an aircraft and safety and all we can do is try to educate the client. Although, they are sometimes like dogs with bones (excuse the bad analogy) and they get it between their teeth and won't let go. We do try our best though!!
Monkeyboy I agree with what you are saying, a good broker should know the aircraft that they are chartering, however after many years in this industry I have never sold a Challenger 604 because it has winglets or slightly different wings and tail/engine midifications etc....all the client wants to know is that it is safe, cost effective and comfortable and the job of a broker is to find the most suitable aircraft at the best price and advise them of the pro's and con's of different aircraft to best suit their needs. Knowing all the ins and out may make you a good spotter, not necessarily a good broker.
Monkeyboy I agree with what you are saying, a good broker should know the aircraft that they are chartering, however after many years in this industry I have never sold a Challenger 604 because it has winglets or slightly different wings and tail/engine midifications etc....all the client wants to know is that it is safe, cost effective and comfortable and the job of a broker is to find the most suitable aircraft at the best price and advise them of the pro's and con's of different aircraft to best suit their needs. Knowing all the ins and out may make you a good spotter, not necessarily a good broker.
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Knowing all the ins and out may make you a good spotter, not necessarily a good broker.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
SB, I am not sure why you're so intrigued by this. I just counted the captains on our fleet and we have about 110. I haven't counted the number of FOs, safe to say it's probably around the 90 or so mark. I think we have just under 30 aircraft alone on the Hawker 800 XPC fleet.
I haven't flown with every FO, nor every captain. I'm pretty confident to say that both would have done the sim recurrent (or initial) on Chambery and both would have reviewed the airport in Part C.
Our SOPs are pretty reasonable (on our fleet - I can't speak for others) and they're robust enough to deal with the situation you just described.
I haven't flown with every FO, nor every captain. I'm pretty confident to say that both would have done the sim recurrent (or initial) on Chambery and both would have reviewed the airport in Part C.
Our SOPs are pretty reasonable (on our fleet - I can't speak for others) and they're robust enough to deal with the situation you just described.
