Is this legal without AOC?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The subtle difference of being able to be 'paid to fly' and earning revenue from a flight.
If it was as clear cut as you suggest. Why do operators bother with the not insignificant expense of having an AOC?
Your friends,friends of friends, or clients are NOT aircraft owners. You're not flying them in direct connection to THIER business, you're flying them in direct connection to YOUR business. Clearer?
If it was as clear cut as you suggest. Why do operators bother with the not insignificant expense of having an AOC?
Your friends,friends of friends, or clients are NOT aircraft owners. You're not flying them in direct connection to THIER business, you're flying them in direct connection to YOUR business. Clearer?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flingingwings, Bravo 73 and lost man standing are making a perfectly eloquent case on the legality side so I'll not lower the tone by joining in. I would like to take issue with one comment though.
It's things like this that p!ss me off. Newly qualified professional pilots have a hard enough time earning a living without this sort of attitude undermining them.
richatom. How would you feel about someone doing your job for nothing?
I have a CPL so I can fly for hire or reward, and I could (if I wished) invoice for my services as a pilot to the passengers. I just choose not to do so, as I enjoy the flying.
richatom. How would you feel about someone doing your job for nothing?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it was as clear cut as you suggest. Why do operators bother with the not insignificant expense of having an AOC?
Your friends,friends of friends, or clients are NOT aircraft owners. You're not flying them in direct connection to THIER business, you're flying them in direct connection to YOUR business. Clearer?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
richatom. How would you feel about someone doing your job for nothing?
If it makes you any happier, I have on some flights charged for my time as a pilot, but with others who are genuine friends I have just done it for free. As I now know it is definitely legal for me to invoice as a pilot, and if the market will bear it, I will happily do so !
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm seeing a pattern here. You started a thread saying you were doing air taxi work then changed your story. Then you said you do charge as a professional yet wrote............
Now you're saying that flying for free and potentially undercutting your 'colleagues' is better than paying your own way like the majority of us.
Just remind us, when were you thinking of venturing into the job market?
I have a CPL so I can fly for hire or reward, and I could (if I wished) invoice for my services as a pilot to the passengers. I just choose not to do so, as I enjoy the flying.
Just remind us, when were you thinking of venturing into the job market?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because they wish to promote and operate an air transport service. I am not proposing to do that
Ok. How about my employer stops all advertising, and then simply waits for somebody to walk/drive by and then approach us to fly them. Two invoices one for aircraft and one for pilot. You saying that would be legal? In that case why don't all AOC holders merely advertise 'Aircraft available for hire'
The question of the purpose of the flight and what business may be done outside the flight is irrelevant.
Flying genuine friends without ANY other motive is different again.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now you're saying that flying for free and potentially undercutting your 'colleagues' is better than paying your own way like the majority of us.
Who is more attractive to you as a potential recruit - somebody who has done his integrated course and then sat at his mum's house with 200 hours waiting for the airlines to offer him a job, or somebody who has the energy and enthusiasm to pay his way through modular course whilst working full time, then , network, build contacts, then fly anything he can get his hands on to build hours, doing light-aircraft transatlantic deliveries, towing gliders, dropping parachutists, flying ag-planes, all of which pays either zilch or else next to nothing? I am not "undercutting" anybody, or putting anybody out of work, because my market value at the moment with 600 or so hours is zero. That is a simple fact.
I am not "changing my story". Last year I did do a number of flights as I have described, and it was a means to get a few hours in after my CPL. When I initiated this thread, I was wondering whether I could try to get some more hours under my belt this summer by "holding out" a little. Having investigated this more, I will not now be doing this.
Last edited by richatom; 3rd Apr 2008 at 18:05.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cranfield UK
Age: 70
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
European rules
Just check your licence, if it is JAA then it is issued in compliance with JAR. JAR Ops 1 is available on the net and applies to you when you operate the way you have been on some of the occasions you have described! just as relevant sections of JAR FCL 1 and 3 do.
How did you get a CPL without understanding basic air law regarding public transport? Sure, it spolis the fun but their (now EASA) reasons are borne out of accidents, illegal flights and sloppy practises in the past.
Lots of friends on this forum have been quite helpful but you do not wish to see it from the point of view of the regulating authorities. You really should now help us all and explain to them why your operations ALL of them are legal in the EC. I for one will be riveted to hear their responses and I challenge you to contact your insurers and ask them to read this thread! Anyway, Good Luck, fly safely and try to stay legal, I am a sailor too.
How did you get a CPL without understanding basic air law regarding public transport? Sure, it spolis the fun but their (now EASA) reasons are borne out of accidents, illegal flights and sloppy practises in the past.
Lots of friends on this forum have been quite helpful but you do not wish to see it from the point of view of the regulating authorities. You really should now help us all and explain to them why your operations ALL of them are legal in the EC. I for one will be riveted to hear their responses and I challenge you to contact your insurers and ask them to read this thread! Anyway, Good Luck, fly safely and try to stay legal, I am a sailor too.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How did you get a CPL without understanding basic air law regarding public transport?
JAR Ops 1 is available on the net and applies to you when you operate the way you have been on some of the occasions you have described!
to them why your operations ALL of them are legal in the EC
There were some on this thread who were authoratively lecturing that it was even illegal to hire a plane to fly myself and a colleague around for business...
Last edited by richatom; 3rd Apr 2008 at 18:29.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by richatom
Who is more attractive to you as a potential recruit - somebody who has done his integrated course and then sat at his mum's house with 200 hours waiting for the airlines to offer him a job, or somebody who has the energy and enthusiasm to pay his way through modular course whilst working full time, then , network, build contacts, then fly anything he can get his hands on to build hours, doing light-aircraft transatlantic deliveries, towing gliders, dropping parachutists, flying ag-planes, all of which pays zilch or else next to nothing?
In addition you're allowing your ignorance of commercial ops to show through. Ag flying for example is a highly specialised sector of the industry and is not somewhere you can just pitch up with a wet licence and expect to fly, quite the opposite. No operator will even let you near an aircraft until you've done at least a season on the ground handling chemicals and filling hoppers. Oh, and have several thousand hours in your log book (depending on type).
Transatlantic aircraft delivery. Highly hazardous and certainly NOT for someone without experience. Oddly enough those qualified to conduct such flights charge real money for them.
Seriously, you need to adjust your approach to this industry. Booting your way in in the fashion you've demonstrated so far isn't going to win you many friends. Assuming the authorities don't take your licence first.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ag flying - just a hypothetical example - not done that seriously yet except a bit for the experience with a friend in Argentina - not regulated there in the way you describe at the time, and he was not getting paid.
Transatlantic aircraft delivery - off to do my first one shortly, alongside somebody who has done a few. Got to start somewhere. The pilot wanted me to pay him for teaching me, but I managed to persuade him to take me for free because I can offer some other interest to him. How else am I supposed to learn how to do what you describe as dangerous and specialised work if I don't do one for free first? Were transatlantic delivery pilots all born with the knowledge? Also doing a delivery to Thailand soon - will be doing that for expenses and the experience - the prospect of a few days holiday in Thailand at the end is enough payment for me thank you.
If you refuse to recruit anybody who has ever flown for free either for the love of flying or to build some hours you must have a very small and venal recruitment pool!
And can you honestly say that you have never once flown for free in your life? If a friend rings you up and invites you to have a go in his Cap-10 for the weekend, would you turn it down? Somebody gives you the chance to fly a Harrier, would you insist on being paid?
Transatlantic aircraft delivery - off to do my first one shortly, alongside somebody who has done a few. Got to start somewhere. The pilot wanted me to pay him for teaching me, but I managed to persuade him to take me for free because I can offer some other interest to him. How else am I supposed to learn how to do what you describe as dangerous and specialised work if I don't do one for free first? Were transatlantic delivery pilots all born with the knowledge? Also doing a delivery to Thailand soon - will be doing that for expenses and the experience - the prospect of a few days holiday in Thailand at the end is enough payment for me thank you.
If you refuse to recruit anybody who has ever flown for free either for the love of flying or to build some hours you must have a very small and venal recruitment pool!
And can you honestly say that you have never once flown for free in your life? If a friend rings you up and invites you to have a go in his Cap-10 for the weekend, would you turn it down? Somebody gives you the chance to fly a Harrier, would you insist on being paid?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich,
Drive and enthusiasm are admirable traits, as is initiative.
Flying hours are only a small part of getting that 'break'. Trying to operate in a very grey area is not a structured route that will develop your abilities. During any interview I would suggest that you omit to mention any of your illegal flights.
As a self funder myself I can assure you that the shady " It's not AOC it's private - basically illegal charters" are seriously frowned upon.
The idea is that you achieve your ambitions legally and with your integrity intact
I do wonder having 'done a few of these flights last year' what prompted you to raise this matter on Pprune? Perhaps a fear that all was not quite right? The overly defensive tone of some of your replies only reinforcing that theory.(and pointing to low hours and youth)
Be thankful that some on here are trying to help you. It's not our fault you don't like what you are being advised.
Take the advice you've been offered or ignore it. Consider though that a few of the respondents to your enquiry have been flying AOC for a while rotary and/or fixed wing and we have nothing to gain, whereas you have everything to lose.
Having been there myself I do genuinely empathise with your situation and the obvious frustration you will feel being qualified, yet with a licence that you are presently unable to use. Hopefully everything will work for you in time.
Good luck
Drive and enthusiasm are admirable traits, as is initiative.
Flying hours are only a small part of getting that 'break'. Trying to operate in a very grey area is not a structured route that will develop your abilities. During any interview I would suggest that you omit to mention any of your illegal flights.
As a self funder myself I can assure you that the shady " It's not AOC it's private - basically illegal charters" are seriously frowned upon.
The idea is that you achieve your ambitions legally and with your integrity intact
I do wonder having 'done a few of these flights last year' what prompted you to raise this matter on Pprune? Perhaps a fear that all was not quite right? The overly defensive tone of some of your replies only reinforcing that theory.(and pointing to low hours and youth)
Be thankful that some on here are trying to help you. It's not our fault you don't like what you are being advised.
Take the advice you've been offered or ignore it. Consider though that a few of the respondents to your enquiry have been flying AOC for a while rotary and/or fixed wing and we have nothing to gain, whereas you have everything to lose.
Having been there myself I do genuinely empathise with your situation and the obvious frustration you will feel being qualified, yet with a licence that you are presently unable to use. Hopefully everything will work for you in time.
Good luck
Guest
Posts: n/a
richatom, you're going round in circles and it's becoming embarrassing. In all honesty you need to learn when to stop.
What on earth does that mean? You clearly stated that ag flying was something that was done for little or no pay. This is the Bizjet and Ag forum, any number of people here will put you right yet instead of listening you react with the defence that you were talking 'hypothetically'.
Deliveries. You've just echoed what I wrote, that they are done by people with experience not someone with a wet licence. I never said people simply pop up and do them in fact I said the opposite so why do you feel the need to dispute it? Defence mechanism kicking in I think.
As for having a pool of venal pilots, what a bizarre thing to write.
"Ve-nal. –adjective
1. willing to sell one's influence, esp. in return for a bribe; open to bribery; mercenary: a venal judge.
2. able to be purchased, as by a bribe: venal acquittals.
3. associated with or characterized by bribery: a venal administration; venal agreements."
Doesn't really 'sit' does it? Now if you'd said 'professional' I would have agreed with you. Professional as in those who are qualified to do their job, take pride in doing so and refuse to sell themselves or colleagues short.
A strange thread this one. You posted admitting to having broken the law, have been given advice by some very experienced people in the field in which
you say you want to work yet persist in rebuffing the advice while disappearing down a deeper hole. I'm all for helping those looking for a break but I know when I'm wasting my time.
Good luck. Without a major shift in attitude I'm afraid you're going to need it.
Ag flying - just a hypothetical example
Deliveries. You've just echoed what I wrote, that they are done by people with experience not someone with a wet licence. I never said people simply pop up and do them in fact I said the opposite so why do you feel the need to dispute it? Defence mechanism kicking in I think.
As for having a pool of venal pilots, what a bizarre thing to write.
"Ve-nal. –adjective
1. willing to sell one's influence, esp. in return for a bribe; open to bribery; mercenary: a venal judge.
2. able to be purchased, as by a bribe: venal acquittals.
3. associated with or characterized by bribery: a venal administration; venal agreements."
Doesn't really 'sit' does it? Now if you'd said 'professional' I would have agreed with you. Professional as in those who are qualified to do their job, take pride in doing so and refuse to sell themselves or colleagues short.
A strange thread this one. You posted admitting to having broken the law, have been given advice by some very experienced people in the field in which
you say you want to work yet persist in rebuffing the advice while disappearing down a deeper hole. I'm all for helping those looking for a break but I know when I'm wasting my time.
Good luck. Without a major shift in attitude I'm afraid you're going to need it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not disputing that AG flying may be well paid in some countries - I bow to your experience on that. I know that my friend was not getting paid for it in Argentina, and he was doing it for hours-building, hence I gave it as a hypothetical example of a means to build hours, which it certainly was in my friend's case. Clear and reasonable enough?
My point about transatlantic delivery is that I am doing the first one for free to learn alongside an experienced pilot (better than paying), then I will probably do another for free on my own. Maybe, if I wish to continue, I might be able to ask for payment for subsequent trips. I am giving this as an example of why sometimes you have no choice but to fly for free - nobody is going to PAY me to do a transatlantic delivery with no prior experience. Do you think that experienced transatlantic delivery pilots got paid on their first ever trip? That was my point, which seems reasonable enough.
I am very surprised that you think that it is wrong to fly without being paid in any circumstances. Certainly I fly because I love it and sure, I would like to get paid as well, but at the moment that is not always possible. I think people who will ONLY fly for money are probably in the wrong profession. I notice you didn't answer my question about whether you would demand payment for flying a Harrier if somebody offered you the chance.
Finally, yes I may have broken a law, hence I posted on here for clarification, and have already said I won't be doing it again. I will, however, continue to do trips in the manner that has now been generally agreed is legal. I am not disregarding anybody's advice except advice that I know is completely wrong (eg from you - eg you were claiming that it was illegal for me even to hire an aircraft to fly myself and a colleague).
In contrast I heard from a NetJets captain that you broke a very major aviation law, which was potentially a criminal offence and for which pilots have received jail sentences, and about which there can never be any grey area whatsoever, and you lost your job for it! Or am I wrong about that too?
My point about transatlantic delivery is that I am doing the first one for free to learn alongside an experienced pilot (better than paying), then I will probably do another for free on my own. Maybe, if I wish to continue, I might be able to ask for payment for subsequent trips. I am giving this as an example of why sometimes you have no choice but to fly for free - nobody is going to PAY me to do a transatlantic delivery with no prior experience. Do you think that experienced transatlantic delivery pilots got paid on their first ever trip? That was my point, which seems reasonable enough.
I am very surprised that you think that it is wrong to fly without being paid in any circumstances. Certainly I fly because I love it and sure, I would like to get paid as well, but at the moment that is not always possible. I think people who will ONLY fly for money are probably in the wrong profession. I notice you didn't answer my question about whether you would demand payment for flying a Harrier if somebody offered you the chance.
Finally, yes I may have broken a law, hence I posted on here for clarification, and have already said I won't be doing it again. I will, however, continue to do trips in the manner that has now been generally agreed is legal. I am not disregarding anybody's advice except advice that I know is completely wrong (eg from you - eg you were claiming that it was illegal for me even to hire an aircraft to fly myself and a colleague).
In contrast I heard from a NetJets captain that you broke a very major aviation law, which was potentially a criminal offence and for which pilots have received jail sentences, and about which there can never be any grey area whatsoever, and you lost your job for it! Or am I wrong about that too?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Some sunny place with good wine and good sailing
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yet again you're not in possession of the whole truth.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by richardtom
I just said that it was an allegation
Originally Posted by richardtom
In contrast I heard from a NetJets captain that you broke a very major aviation law, which was potentially a criminal offence and for which pilots have received jail sentences, and about which there can never be any grey area whatsoever.....
PS As is often the case in these matters each party is obliged to sign a confidentiality contract covering all aspects of the dispute and settlement. Now, if your friend is spreading stories and he's part of the company they are in breach of that contract. Care to tell me his name so I can set the lawyers on them again?
Last edited by Flintstone; 3rd Apr 2008 at 21:51.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dunno ... what day is it?
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well it seems to me that it was a very clear rich was reporting an allegation, Flinty my old friend. Hence he said "...I heard from a NetJets captain...", a little snippet that you conveniently ignore despite quoting it. Or did you not quite understand what rich was saying?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: WGS 84
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys I really don't understand what's wrong with you, and which part of the message you didn't get !
Public transport means open to anybody and generally for commercial purposes.
You don't need to own an aircraft to do private operations (private operations means the contrary of commercial operations...).
Most of private aircrafts are acquired under leasing, meaning most of them belongs to banks and not owners, and still, they are used for PRIVATE operations. Private aircrafts owners are not all pilots, and some are hiring professional pilots (CPL holders) to fly these private aircrafts, and it IS NOT commercial public transport as long as you don't make money out of it.
When you get an aircraft in dry leasing, you are absolutely allowed to hire a pilot or to ask a friend to fly it (for free or not) as long as you DO NOT carry out commercial operations.
Richard said he asked the DGAC, and they had a clear explanation, why the hell do you continue to argue when the CAA just answered the question ?
Do you know that some CPL pilots are legally being paid to fly PC 12 while this aircraft is not approved for IFR commercial flights ? It is possible because they are operated for private purposes...
And by the way, private operations doesn't mean less safety or professionalism ! It's just that some people are not willing to be bothered by AOC restrictions and costs when they are not concerned !
If Richard, who seems to have a quite interesting job, wishes to fly for free in order to build up hours, it's his own right, especially when the concerned flights are not commercial ones ! Private means Private, and it's none of your business how people decide to enjoy the aircraft they are paying for.
Public transport means open to anybody and generally for commercial purposes.
You don't need to own an aircraft to do private operations (private operations means the contrary of commercial operations...).
Most of private aircrafts are acquired under leasing, meaning most of them belongs to banks and not owners, and still, they are used for PRIVATE operations. Private aircrafts owners are not all pilots, and some are hiring professional pilots (CPL holders) to fly these private aircrafts, and it IS NOT commercial public transport as long as you don't make money out of it.
When you get an aircraft in dry leasing, you are absolutely allowed to hire a pilot or to ask a friend to fly it (for free or not) as long as you DO NOT carry out commercial operations.
Richard said he asked the DGAC, and they had a clear explanation, why the hell do you continue to argue when the CAA just answered the question ?
Do you know that some CPL pilots are legally being paid to fly PC 12 while this aircraft is not approved for IFR commercial flights ? It is possible because they are operated for private purposes...
And by the way, private operations doesn't mean less safety or professionalism ! It's just that some people are not willing to be bothered by AOC restrictions and costs when they are not concerned !
If Richard, who seems to have a quite interesting job, wishes to fly for free in order to build up hours, it's his own right, especially when the concerned flights are not commercial ones ! Private means Private, and it's none of your business how people decide to enjoy the aircraft they are paying for.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Haha
Look who's back, Life's A Beech/Send Clowns.
Now let's see. richatom makes a ridiculous post, I call him to account for it, he logs off and SC turns up. Kinda answers the 'which name is SC posting under these days' question, doesn't it?
Nice try.
(Actually Clowns I know you and he are different people, completely different posting styles. That's what gave you and LAB away as being the same person. Funny how he (rich) cut and run when I asked him for a name though, eh? Maybe I'll get another car out of this).
Look who's back, Life's A Beech/Send Clowns.Now let's see. richatom makes a ridiculous post, I call him to account for it, he logs off and SC turns up. Kinda answers the 'which name is SC posting under these days' question, doesn't it?
Nice try.
(Actually Clowns I know you and he are different people, completely different posting styles. That's what gave you and LAB away as being the same person. Funny how he (rich) cut and run when I asked him for a name though, eh? Maybe I'll get another car out of this).