Low-timers in bizjet jobs
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Whoa there!!
I did not quit for that reason at all... more the company managements blase attitude towards anything safety oriented as the customer-satisfaction and profit overrode all that.
I enjoyed teaching new guys the ropes and have indeed payed back the favour SEVERAL times and brought low-timers into jobs/better equipment, and I will continue to do so in future.. what goes around, comes around.. remember?
My point was that for the poor blokes its a near vertical learning curve and usually in companies you will give them the support and intensive line training with good training captains to lay the foundations of their flying habits. We tried this, but a few occasions the crew-planning didnt work out conviniently with some border line results..ho-hum..
IMHExperience, these guys I dealt with where sharp, willing to learn and wanted to fly like mad... so they had the potential and should develop into good future captains. The one weakness I did see in basically all of them was the lack of IFR radio experience and comfort in the IFR environment. This is easier overcome if somebody starts flying jets in their own backyard (ie local light jet operator) they learn the ropes without having to deal with the added stress of flying NAT stuff, long-range internationally or in a CRM/FMS-heavy jet like the 604.
Before somebody starts by mentioning all the airline pups that start with 200hr in Europe these days, they dont work in the same chaos that bizjet guys do.. alot more structure and progress management by the airlines as well as sorted logistics.
Anyway.. threaddrift...
I did not quit for that reason at all... more the company managements blase attitude towards anything safety oriented as the customer-satisfaction and profit overrode all that.
I enjoyed teaching new guys the ropes and have indeed payed back the favour SEVERAL times and brought low-timers into jobs/better equipment, and I will continue to do so in future.. what goes around, comes around.. remember?
My point was that for the poor blokes its a near vertical learning curve and usually in companies you will give them the support and intensive line training with good training captains to lay the foundations of their flying habits. We tried this, but a few occasions the crew-planning didnt work out conviniently with some border line results..ho-hum..
IMHExperience, these guys I dealt with where sharp, willing to learn and wanted to fly like mad... so they had the potential and should develop into good future captains. The one weakness I did see in basically all of them was the lack of IFR radio experience and comfort in the IFR environment. This is easier overcome if somebody starts flying jets in their own backyard (ie local light jet operator) they learn the ropes without having to deal with the added stress of flying NAT stuff, long-range internationally or in a CRM/FMS-heavy jet like the 604.
Before somebody starts by mentioning all the airline pups that start with 200hr in Europe these days, they dont work in the same chaos that bizjet guys do.. alot more structure and progress management by the airlines as well as sorted logistics.
Anyway.. threaddrift...
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Perhaps I should explain what I mean by low timers in my case..
I have around 800TT and I have some jet time. I have applied to many corporate jet/bizjet companies and am currently applying to air taxi/charter companies. Naturally I am looking for an FO position, however I am not picky as I realise I have low experience, hence I am also looking for any SIC time or right hand seat time or safety pilot time. I do have a few contacts but they are in the airline side of things and they are unable to help me.
I will move down/up to anywhere.
Cheers,
I have around 800TT and I have some jet time. I have applied to many corporate jet/bizjet companies and am currently applying to air taxi/charter companies. Naturally I am looking for an FO position, however I am not picky as I realise I have low experience, hence I am also looking for any SIC time or right hand seat time or safety pilot time. I do have a few contacts but they are in the airline side of things and they are unable to help me.
I will move down/up to anywhere.
Cheers,
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CPAM, On another thread somewhere, Ravenair LPL are looking at the mo, 700hrs TT for air taxi work, Aztec, Seneca and Partenavia.
Some guys from there have moved in the past to AD (Citations) also based at LPL.
Some guys from there have moved in the past to AD (Citations) also based at LPL.
Whatever happens,.. happens!
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I'm with you LRdriver II,
I've had my share of flying with relatively inexperienced colleagues in the right seat.
Its gotten a lot easier with the magenta line in front of you compared to round dials and an SP 77, nevertheless, coming from an Otter on to a Jet is like drinking Water from a Fire hose, especially when "things" get hectic with the Wx going down all around and everybody trying to find a piece of concrete to pitch onto. Often you find yourself driving and guiding the conversation with ATC, along with getting info for deviations when you find out that the holding time to get into your alternate is unacceptable due to insufficient combustibles as a result of having been jerked around sped up and slowed down etc. before you even got near your destination!
All this is ok. if your young colleague has a good attitude and recognizes that he didn't exactly keep up with the profile and is still wondering how we got on the ground, we all have to learn!
The problem arises when said young colleague, after having made a nice smooth landing, looks at you and his look says "when are you going to get the hell out of my seat you old fart"
Thankfully not all are like that, yet, LRdriver II is talking a language I understand.
fluf
I've had my share of flying with relatively inexperienced colleagues in the right seat.
Its gotten a lot easier with the magenta line in front of you compared to round dials and an SP 77, nevertheless, coming from an Otter on to a Jet is like drinking Water from a Fire hose, especially when "things" get hectic with the Wx going down all around and everybody trying to find a piece of concrete to pitch onto. Often you find yourself driving and guiding the conversation with ATC, along with getting info for deviations when you find out that the holding time to get into your alternate is unacceptable due to insufficient combustibles as a result of having been jerked around sped up and slowed down etc. before you even got near your destination!
All this is ok. if your young colleague has a good attitude and recognizes that he didn't exactly keep up with the profile and is still wondering how we got on the ground, we all have to learn!
The problem arises when said young colleague, after having made a nice smooth landing, looks at you and his look says "when are you going to get the hell out of my seat you old fart"
Thankfully not all are like that, yet, LRdriver II is talking a language I understand.
fluf
i got my first jet job (SIC/P2 on citation 2) with 360 hrs tt. It can be done. There was a degree of right place right time, and i fitted in with the very small team personality wise which was also fortunate. One extra thing i think went in my favour was the fact that i did a lot with my 360 hrs (had over 40 different airports in the book, had flown in 4 different countries, 7 types, 100+ hrs IFR including a fair chunk of "real" IFR too etc etc) I didn't just float round taking family & friends on look/see flights or build up hours by going the instructor route, flogging round the same circuit day in day out teaching PPL's. Yes a thousand hours will make the operators insurance bill cheaper but thats about it. Everybody finds their first jet a demanding experience, but a friend of mine went instructing and accumulated 1000 hrs doing it, but when he got his jet job he took as long as me to get to grips with it. Pilots do get positions with low hours, otherwise how would anyone ever build any experience? Take care.
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Originally Posted by Private Jet
I didn't just float round taking family & friends on look/see flights or build up hours by going the instructor route, flogging round the same circuit day in day out teaching PPL's.
Those instructors, eh? Who needs them? I take it you taught yourself to fly?
Originally Posted by Private Jet
Yes a thousand hours will make the operators insurance bill cheaper but thats about it.
Originally Posted by Private Jet
Pilots do get positions with low hours, otherwise how would anyone ever build any experience? Take care.
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Some very valid points made by all, there is one though that I think overides them all, that is, when you do get into that right seat for the first time, you have been thrust into an enviroment where time is money and the passenger/s are waiting.
There is no such thing as learning time, it is go from day one. The guy in the left seat is basically running the show until he can see that some load sharing can be safely achieved. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the guy in the right seat is doing nothing, but when you are new to IFR in Europe/Africa or the Middle East, there is so much to learn, throw in weather, delays and alternates, it gets tough.
Just last week coming into Jeddah from the East in T/storms, my new F/O accepted a descent clearance 2000 feet below the MSA for that sector hoping this would get us below the turbulence layer, my own knowledge and experience stopped that immediately, but what if I was not on the ball that night, it does not bear thinking about, the good thing is he hopefully will not do that again.
Then there is the first time at an airport with parallel runway operations, staring at the other aircraft on final saying "wow, look at that" does nothing to ingraciate me. It is a hostile learning enviroment at first and needs to be regarded as such, the air taxi/freight dog route is a good system and gets you into the system before you start flying at 450 knots.
Things happen quickly in Bizjets and you need to be quicker. Good luck to all of you trying to get on that first ladder rung, but beware that the corporate culture does not push you beyond your personal limits before you are ready to handle them.
There is no such thing as learning time, it is go from day one. The guy in the left seat is basically running the show until he can see that some load sharing can be safely achieved. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the guy in the right seat is doing nothing, but when you are new to IFR in Europe/Africa or the Middle East, there is so much to learn, throw in weather, delays and alternates, it gets tough.
Just last week coming into Jeddah from the East in T/storms, my new F/O accepted a descent clearance 2000 feet below the MSA for that sector hoping this would get us below the turbulence layer, my own knowledge and experience stopped that immediately, but what if I was not on the ball that night, it does not bear thinking about, the good thing is he hopefully will not do that again.
Then there is the first time at an airport with parallel runway operations, staring at the other aircraft on final saying "wow, look at that" does nothing to ingraciate me. It is a hostile learning enviroment at first and needs to be regarded as such, the air taxi/freight dog route is a good system and gets you into the system before you start flying at 450 knots.
Things happen quickly in Bizjets and you need to be quicker. Good luck to all of you trying to get on that first ladder rung, but beware that the corporate culture does not push you beyond your personal limits before you are ready to handle them.
Flintstone,
I'm not rubbishing being an instructor per se, its just that this cannot be the route for everyone. If it were then the throughput of pilots to the jets, be it airline or corporate, would be a trickle and instructors would be even more poorly paid and abused than they are now! As others have eloquently put it, tranferring to the higher performance equipment is a whole new ball game. Its demanding, different, with a very steep learning curve, its a brain transplant. Unfortunately its a fact of aviation life that for the first 50 hrs or so the captain, is, to some extent, effectively working alone, esp in corporate ops.
Of course i did not teach myself to fly, in fact my instructor at the time (13 yrs back [where did all that time go?] had 10K hrs instructing, and was a very good instructor and light aircraft pilot for it but put him in any jet and he'd be in most respects the same as anyone else in that position. I posted my message to say it is possible to get and hold down a corporate jet job from low hours, with a bit of luck...
If however, you are saying that being an ex instructor sets you up somehow to be a better pilot through your whole career or more deserving of a jet job ahead of anyone else, well, then my friend i'd have to take up cudgels with you on that point!! Stay safe.
I'm not rubbishing being an instructor per se, its just that this cannot be the route for everyone. If it were then the throughput of pilots to the jets, be it airline or corporate, would be a trickle and instructors would be even more poorly paid and abused than they are now! As others have eloquently put it, tranferring to the higher performance equipment is a whole new ball game. Its demanding, different, with a very steep learning curve, its a brain transplant. Unfortunately its a fact of aviation life that for the first 50 hrs or so the captain, is, to some extent, effectively working alone, esp in corporate ops.
Of course i did not teach myself to fly, in fact my instructor at the time (13 yrs back [where did all that time go?] had 10K hrs instructing, and was a very good instructor and light aircraft pilot for it but put him in any jet and he'd be in most respects the same as anyone else in that position. I posted my message to say it is possible to get and hold down a corporate jet job from low hours, with a bit of luck...
If however, you are saying that being an ex instructor sets you up somehow to be a better pilot through your whole career or more deserving of a jet job ahead of anyone else, well, then my friend i'd have to take up cudgels with you on that point!! Stay safe.
Last edited by Private jet; 26th Jan 2008 at 17:25.
