XLS and 3000 ft long runway
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XLS and 3000 ft long runway
Question to XLS buddies:
Operating XLS from 3000 ft (900 m) long runway?
According to AFM it is possible in certain circumstances/conditions.
But what is your (pilot's) opinion about that?
Yogi
Operating XLS from 3000 ft (900 m) long runway?
According to AFM it is possible in certain circumstances/conditions.
But what is your (pilot's) opinion about that?
Yogi
don't even think about it.jarops you'd have 1000lbs of fuel, in excess of a 30kt headwind, -25degrees C at sea level.
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We operate a Sovereign out of a 3400 ft field an had a demo with the Cessna guys for a XLS before. They were definitely not happy there. We took off with 5 Pax / 2 crew and 3000lbs of fuel and relanded with about 2100 remaining. If I remember correctly, the issue was landing, not takeoff.
We calculated for our field, which has an Issue with first segment, the XLS was able to fly roughly 700nm with 4 pax and their bags, whereas the Sovereign can go 1800nm under the same conditions.Landing was the bigger issue, tankering more or less impossible. We use a 1,25 factor (private ops) and can land on a dry rwy at MLW up to 25°. Wet is something different, we use 1,44 but still can have 5000lbs of fuel with us. That is an issue as fuel is horribly expensive - the XLS would need (at 1,25) to be close to min diversion fuel.
So I cant really help, but IŽd recommend te following: talk to your Cessna dealerand tell them you need to calculate your airfield. Either they let you have a AFM/OM or a calculating progam or they can give you an emailcontact of their demoguys.
We use 1,25 nad 1,44 without having to do so, but it might be very well that JAROPS2 - or ho they will call it then - contains these numbers.
h_d
We calculated for our field, which has an Issue with first segment, the XLS was able to fly roughly 700nm with 4 pax and their bags, whereas the Sovereign can go 1800nm under the same conditions.Landing was the bigger issue, tankering more or less impossible. We use a 1,25 factor (private ops) and can land on a dry rwy at MLW up to 25°. Wet is something different, we use 1,44 but still can have 5000lbs of fuel with us. That is an issue as fuel is horribly expensive - the XLS would need (at 1,25) to be close to min diversion fuel.
So I cant really help, but IŽd recommend te following: talk to your Cessna dealerand tell them you need to calculate your airfield. Either they let you have a AFM/OM or a calculating progam or they can give you an emailcontact of their demoguys.
We use 1,25 nad 1,44 without having to do so, but it might be very well that JAROPS2 - or ho they will call it then - contains these numbers.
h_d
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XLS on 3K
You are very limited with this field length but +5C @ Sea Level and 18000 lbs is about as good as it gets assuming good engines, crew, runway gradient, winds etc, remember also that in the event of a rejected takeoff, the thrust reversers are not factored into the braking distance so this could help you. I would certainly crunch the numbers for each and every flight though and not even think about the standard day table!.
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Thanx
Thanx guys for all replies.
To be honest I don't care about JAR OPS because we fly private (non AOC). Currently we operate CJ1 from that runway and with JAR OPS that also would not be possible. We don't operate from that runway during winter season as well as if runway is wet. We fly just short 1 - 1,5 hour missions with 2 pax. If we have to fly farther or with more pax, we fly to big international airport nearby (65 NM) with a little fuel, refuel there and fly to destination. We don't do anything out of the limits. We going to do that way with XLS+, too.
According to Flight Planning Guide from Cessna, take-off performances are even better that CJ1 (we can fly longer missions), but landing doesn't look nice, but theoretically is possible.
At elevation 1000 ft, 12800 lbs BOW, 1400 lbs alternate fuel and 4 pax (15000 lbs landing weight) and no wind we can still land up to 40 Celsius.
I am asking you as pilots: What do you think about that? Is it going to be very hard to land on that distance?
My experience with CJ1 is very positive. When I was trained at FlightSafety I asked almost every instructor about landing CJ1 on that short runway and everyone was sceptical. Fortunately test pilot from Cessna showed me how to do that in reality and it appeared that I can stop aircraft at distance about 30-40% shorter than calculated.
Is it going to be the same with XLS?
Or maybe it is completely different story?
Regards,
Yogi
To be honest I don't care about JAR OPS because we fly private (non AOC). Currently we operate CJ1 from that runway and with JAR OPS that also would not be possible. We don't operate from that runway during winter season as well as if runway is wet. We fly just short 1 - 1,5 hour missions with 2 pax. If we have to fly farther or with more pax, we fly to big international airport nearby (65 NM) with a little fuel, refuel there and fly to destination. We don't do anything out of the limits. We going to do that way with XLS+, too.
According to Flight Planning Guide from Cessna, take-off performances are even better that CJ1 (we can fly longer missions), but landing doesn't look nice, but theoretically is possible.
At elevation 1000 ft, 12800 lbs BOW, 1400 lbs alternate fuel and 4 pax (15000 lbs landing weight) and no wind we can still land up to 40 Celsius.
I am asking you as pilots: What do you think about that? Is it going to be very hard to land on that distance?
My experience with CJ1 is very positive. When I was trained at FlightSafety I asked almost every instructor about landing CJ1 on that short runway and everyone was sceptical. Fortunately test pilot from Cessna showed me how to do that in reality and it appeared that I can stop aircraft at distance about 30-40% shorter than calculated.
Is it going to be the same with XLS?
Or maybe it is completely different story?
Regards,
Yogi
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Landing is definitely the issue here. Forget about wet runway. Forget about JAR-OPS. But it is completely feasible especially if you touch down right at the threshold (gives you some margin of the AFM figures).
Are you allowed to perform "Short Field Landings" (=crossing the THR at 15ft instead of 50ft)? I have flown the XL/XLS for some time now and if you are right on speed (Vref, not Vref+5 or Vref+2!) over the threshold you can even touchdown in the normal TDZ and stop without problems, you just need to step on the brakes right after you are on the ground. But: you will have not much of a margin, but I guess you are aware of this.
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Think about the (in)famous worst case scenario? You don't do anything wrong, but a tire blows on landing, you go off the end, into a ditch, for some reason a post accident fire ensues, and insurance starts to ask questions. Never having been there, I don't know how much insurance influences decisions in Poland, but sadly it rules the roost here in the USA. If someone is hurt, and you are PIC, here in the USA, you will have a lot to answer as to why you were pushing the limits, daily, on an aircraft not designed for regular operation into such a short field.
Also, the it must be sooo restrictive on fuel/load, is it really worth the effort?
Also, the it must be sooo restrictive on fuel/load, is it really worth the effort?
