Netjets FA Abonndoned In Moscow
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I have been in that situation. Arrived in Krasnodar, Russia, with an FA whose 3-entry visa just expired because of a last-minute change of plans by the customer.
She was told that she needed stay at the airport crew-hotel (aka flea-pit), under guard, until such time as we would leave for Moscow, which was about 36 hours.
I elected to stay with her, in an adjacent room at the flea pit, while the rest of the crew went downtown to the nice hotel. At meal times, the 3 of us (FA, me and russian border guard) would be allowed 2 hours at the airport restaurant, before having to rejoin our rooms.
Not a nice experience. HOWEVER: Russian officials were firm but perfectly civil. We were EXTREMELY safe from any danger, even though terminally bored.
Encountering the same situation in Vnukovo, i would probably do exactly the same as that Netjets crew. First, insure with the Border Police and the Handling agent exactly where the FA would stay and how long, then go to our Hotel to get some sleep. Perfectly safe. Same as staying in London, Paris or New York.
All the finger-pointing drama-queens on this thread had better go over their own books first, asking themselves what exactly they are doing operating a business jet wolrdwide. Maybe their particular brand or whining is more suited to cattle-transportation... In the corporate world we operate with adults!
She was told that she needed stay at the airport crew-hotel (aka flea-pit), under guard, until such time as we would leave for Moscow, which was about 36 hours.
I elected to stay with her, in an adjacent room at the flea pit, while the rest of the crew went downtown to the nice hotel. At meal times, the 3 of us (FA, me and russian border guard) would be allowed 2 hours at the airport restaurant, before having to rejoin our rooms.
Not a nice experience. HOWEVER: Russian officials were firm but perfectly civil. We were EXTREMELY safe from any danger, even though terminally bored.
Encountering the same situation in Vnukovo, i would probably do exactly the same as that Netjets crew. First, insure with the Border Police and the Handling agent exactly where the FA would stay and how long, then go to our Hotel to get some sleep. Perfectly safe. Same as staying in London, Paris or New York.
All the finger-pointing drama-queens on this thread had better go over their own books first, asking themselves what exactly they are doing operating a business jet wolrdwide. Maybe their particular brand or whining is more suited to cattle-transportation... In the corporate world we operate with adults!
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FlyMD
Who made you King??
You assume the NJE crew did this. To quote from you " i would probably do exactly the same as that Netjets crew. First, insure with the Border Police and the Handling agent exactly where the FA would stay and how long,.........................................". How do you know they did?
I see you are from Switzerland, so are you Swiss? If so, since when have the Swiss stood up for anyone apart for themselves, pray tell me. So don't patronize me.
Who made you King??
You assume the NJE crew did this. To quote from you " i would probably do exactly the same as that Netjets crew. First, insure with the Border Police and the Handling agent exactly where the FA would stay and how long,.........................................". How do you know they did?
I see you are from Switzerland, so are you Swiss? If so, since when have the Swiss stood up for anyone apart for themselves, pray tell me. So don't patronize me.
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doubleu-anker: obviously, the last sentence of my thread applies to you. It is my ongoing privilege to patronize people less fortunate in the brains department.
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Flintstone,
As far as I know, the no-visa deal is only available at Sheremetyevo. Apparently, this story took place at Vnukovo, and if you get there after customs's hours without a visa, you are out of luck...
Regards,
Goose
As far as I know, the no-visa deal is only available at Sheremetyevo. Apparently, this story took place at Vnukovo, and if you get there after customs's hours without a visa, you are out of luck...
Regards,
Goose
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Aaahh, for some reason I thought this was at Sheremetyevo.
How the hell can anyone be left like this? There are few facilities at Vnukovo even if it is a new terminal. Bet the atmosphere on board was less than pleasant for the rest of the tour.
How the hell can anyone be left like this? There are few facilities at Vnukovo even if it is a new terminal. Bet the atmosphere on board was less than pleasant for the rest of the tour.
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Well, what a bunch of thoughtless tossers some of you lot are.
I know Vnukovo airport well having flown in there a lot and on occasions waiting four or five hrs for visas to be sorted as the flights were last minute.
So it is OK to abandon the same person that you would expect to drag you out of a burning aeroplane. Probabaly crashed because the weight your ego exceeded W&B.
The crew are your crew and your responsibility, that is the law.
Why didn't the Captain check the paperwork before departure? Or was that someone elses responsibility also?
I know Vnukovo airport well having flown in there a lot and on occasions waiting four or five hrs for visas to be sorted as the flights were last minute.
So it is OK to abandon the same person that you would expect to drag you out of a burning aeroplane. Probabaly crashed because the weight your ego exceeded W&B.
The crew are your crew and your responsibility, that is the law.
Why didn't the Captain check the paperwork before departure? Or was that someone elses responsibility also?
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Well written Pilot Bear. I'd been castigating myself for not responding more forcefully but claim jet lag in my defence.
A crew is just that and I struggle to understand what kind of captain could make such a decision. Chivalry and common decency aside we can all cite textbook CRM cases where captains who have treated their crew badly have contributed to accidents and incidents.
"Drama"? I think not. Is this FA going to step in and warn the captain that he's about to do something stupid or at the very least embarassing in future or just let him get egg on his face? It's happened before.
Piss poor in my opinion.
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I have been reading this thread and it has made me so mad I have to stop lurking and post my absolute disgust. I know many very good captains in Netjets who treat the cabin crew as an integral part of the team and would never, ever do such a thing as dump someone in the terminal for the night.
Some of the very astute members of this community state that the flight deck crew should leave the flight attendant so they could get their legal rest. Is it not true that the flight attendant also needs the same legal rest as the pilots under Netjets regulations?
If the flight deck crew HAD to go to the hotel to get the legal rest how could they operate with the flight attendant they abandoned? It was because they had well above minimum rest and the captain just showed a complete lack of judgement and CRM.
I overheard someone discussing this in the crew room in Nice yesterday and they mentioned a very well known and vocal member of Pprune who is a blinkered supporter of the company.
I will of course, not be pressured into divulging his name.
Some of the very astute members of this community state that the flight deck crew should leave the flight attendant so they could get their legal rest. Is it not true that the flight attendant also needs the same legal rest as the pilots under Netjets regulations?
If the flight deck crew HAD to go to the hotel to get the legal rest how could they operate with the flight attendant they abandoned? It was because they had well above minimum rest and the captain just showed a complete lack of judgement and CRM.
I overheard someone discussing this in the crew room in Nice yesterday and they mentioned a very well known and vocal member of Pprune who is a blinkered supporter of the company.
I will of course, not be pressured into divulging his name.
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Well there you have it.
One gets fired for putting wine on the hotel bill, but this person is allowed to neglect his crew and get away with it.
Summing up then, obviously money is more important than the welfare of personal (safety) at this establishment.
There are crew members of certain backgrounds and from certain geographical areas, who simply cannot function without orders or a rule book. In my day there was a thing called iniative. Now it's all about CTA.
Seen the type in question over the years, as they come across as perfect on paper, answer for everything, never make mistakes of course, then an enormous screw up (won't admit it), then end up on their backs, legs up.
I REST MY CASE.
One gets fired for putting wine on the hotel bill, but this person is allowed to neglect his crew and get away with it.
Summing up then, obviously money is more important than the welfare of personal (safety) at this establishment.
There are crew members of certain backgrounds and from certain geographical areas, who simply cannot function without orders or a rule book. In my day there was a thing called iniative. Now it's all about CTA.
Seen the type in question over the years, as they come across as perfect on paper, answer for everything, never make mistakes of course, then an enormous screw up (won't admit it), then end up on their backs, legs up.
I REST MY CASE.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 4th May 2007 at 20:44.
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"Another master race of Europe I presume. Now I didn't mention the war."
Supposed to be funny? Basil Fawlty style? What does this sentence proof, apart from yours brain departments contents?
Get some help.
Facts Vnukowo: More Police, Border Patrols etcetc. than on any of her majesties airports. Diwan to sleep on. Have been there, did exactly that after our agent couldnīt get to UUEE to get a Visa in time. About 3 -4 years ago. Its not pleasant because its uncomfy and lighted and noisy all the time. BUT ITS NOT DANGEROUS.
If said FA was frightened and asked crew to stay, it might be a different story, but DO we now that? Or do we just all assume a gorgeous young, blond, tanned female kneeing in front of the EVIL HUN CAPTAIN, begging him not leave her behind?
As for Moscow beeing a major crime city, I have lived there for 3 months last year freelancing and NOTHING happend to me. Others that I know are there for years and had probs so far.
Was in Central African Republic (Bangui) the other day, and locals ("handling") wanted to separate our FA from us, since Hotel was overbooked - said no way, stayed with her, in the end we all got rooms. Bangui is a place where I donīt let any of my crew alone. (Nor would I like to be left alone there!)
But Moscow Vnukowo airport ? Get a grip!
The only valid point SO FAR is the legal rest requirement for the FA.
Supposed to be funny? Basil Fawlty style? What does this sentence proof, apart from yours brain departments contents?
Get some help.
Facts Vnukowo: More Police, Border Patrols etcetc. than on any of her majesties airports. Diwan to sleep on. Have been there, did exactly that after our agent couldnīt get to UUEE to get a Visa in time. About 3 -4 years ago. Its not pleasant because its uncomfy and lighted and noisy all the time. BUT ITS NOT DANGEROUS.
If said FA was frightened and asked crew to stay, it might be a different story, but DO we now that? Or do we just all assume a gorgeous young, blond, tanned female kneeing in front of the EVIL HUN CAPTAIN, begging him not leave her behind?
As for Moscow beeing a major crime city, I have lived there for 3 months last year freelancing and NOTHING happend to me. Others that I know are there for years and had probs so far.
Was in Central African Republic (Bangui) the other day, and locals ("handling") wanted to separate our FA from us, since Hotel was overbooked - said no way, stayed with her, in the end we all got rooms. Bangui is a place where I donīt let any of my crew alone. (Nor would I like to be left alone there!)
But Moscow Vnukowo airport ? Get a grip!
The only valid point SO FAR is the legal rest requirement for the FA.
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'EVIL HUN CAPTAIN'
The Captain was not German, he was a Brit.
Dudeness, why take the chance to leave a female flight attendant in a country when she doesn't speak the language, all alone at night. And don't even start to say there are police and security guards about, that is no comfort.
Are we not taught to stick together as a crew when there was no legal reason for the cockpit crew to go to bed? As I said earlier they all operated legally the next day after the FA made it to the hotel for 11 hours.
Why not relax in the plane with the APU running and watch a movie, why take the extra risk of leaving a female crew member all night in the terminal?
This is just a case of bad CRM and judgement. I am amazed and ashamed that there are people who think this is acceptable, it is not.
The Captain was not German, he was a Brit.
Dudeness, why take the chance to leave a female flight attendant in a country when she doesn't speak the language, all alone at night. And don't even start to say there are police and security guards about, that is no comfort.
Are we not taught to stick together as a crew when there was no legal reason for the cockpit crew to go to bed? As I said earlier they all operated legally the next day after the FA made it to the hotel for 11 hours.
Why not relax in the plane with the APU running and watch a movie, why take the extra risk of leaving a female crew member all night in the terminal?
This is just a case of bad CRM and judgement. I am amazed and ashamed that there are people who think this is acceptable, it is not.
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"This is just a case of bad CRM and judgement. I am amazed and ashamed that there are people who think this is acceptable, it is not."
Point taken, BUT, I say, we just donīt know IF the FA not just said: Go to the hotel, Iīm okay here. We donīt know what happened apart from the raw facts (and even that might not be true):
1) FA without Visa in UUWW, had to stay on airport.
2) Rest of crew went to hotel
Or have I over read something?
What amazes ME is what we are making out of it. And if it was bad CRM, why is not one of us mentioning the F/O, who is part of the crew, isnīt he/she? Did the captain made him go? By brute force? Did the evil fourstriper overrule him/her?
It might have been an unpleasant experience for the FA, but IMO we just donīt have enough information to judge. Do we know what the company said? IF our FA would tell me she is fine on her own, Iīd go to the hotel.
And just by the way, I donīt get what the fact that this happend in NJE, or that the Cap is supposedly a NJE supporter in PPrune has to do with it. This kind of mistake happens EVERYWHERE, in any company.
It is always easy to blame - or to fire on the spot as one of the smartest posters suggested.
Just imagine: the crew went to the terminal and with help from the handling they sorted out a room with a bed and a blanket and she said: come on guys, you donīt have to stay, greet the hotel and get me a decent breakfast. See you"
That COULD have happened, couldnīt it?
Point taken, BUT, I say, we just donīt know IF the FA not just said: Go to the hotel, Iīm okay here. We donīt know what happened apart from the raw facts (and even that might not be true):
1) FA without Visa in UUWW, had to stay on airport.
2) Rest of crew went to hotel
Or have I over read something?
What amazes ME is what we are making out of it. And if it was bad CRM, why is not one of us mentioning the F/O, who is part of the crew, isnīt he/she? Did the captain made him go? By brute force? Did the evil fourstriper overrule him/her?
It might have been an unpleasant experience for the FA, but IMO we just donīt have enough information to judge. Do we know what the company said? IF our FA would tell me she is fine on her own, Iīd go to the hotel.
And just by the way, I donīt get what the fact that this happend in NJE, or that the Cap is supposedly a NJE supporter in PPrune has to do with it. This kind of mistake happens EVERYWHERE, in any company.
It is always easy to blame - or to fire on the spot as one of the smartest posters suggested.
Just imagine: the crew went to the terminal and with help from the handling they sorted out a room with a bed and a blanket and she said: come on guys, you donīt have to stay, greet the hotel and get me a decent breakfast. See you"
That COULD have happened, couldnīt it?
Last edited by His dudeness; 5th May 2007 at 10:46.
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Is it not true that the flight attendant also needs the same legal rest as the pilots under Netjets regulations?
I think that EVERYBODY is jumping the gun. How de we know who the flight attendant was or what decision was come to? For all we know she was perfectly comfortable and told the crew, against their protests, to get a good night's rest.
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Being in the company for a while, and knowing quite well the there abouts of "unfriendly journeys", I have a lot of doubts that if this event ever happened, it would have been a crew decision. Like most of the captains , NTA or else, one day or the other you will/had to face this "non-standard" situation. Resolutions of these conflicts can run from " Ferry to another place" to " all sleep in the aircraft". Our company ( NTA) is reactive enough in these situations that the scenario of letting down a FA in tears is highly unlikely ( read impossible). 
Our FA are very well looked after, and NO captains would be miserable enough to do this. IF this event happened, on a unilateral decision from the PIC, this is wishfull misconduct and should be treated as such.
On the other end , I'm VERY surprised to see a FA WITHOUT a russian visa in our company, they usually have all the visas to go everywhere.
Since all these thread are carefully monitored by Lisbon, I'm quite sure that if it goes 'over the top' a little e-mail would clarify the situation to all crews at NTA. I do not have the power/right/authorization to disclose ANY informations if ever I had any about this case; but I'm pretty certain that people who left the company and still have ties within, would be very keen to publish their investigations..
Our FA are very well looked after, and NO captains would be miserable enough to do this. IF this event happened, on a unilateral decision from the PIC, this is wishfull misconduct and should be treated as such.
On the other end , I'm VERY surprised to see a FA WITHOUT a russian visa in our company, they usually have all the visas to go everywhere.
Since all these thread are carefully monitored by Lisbon, I'm quite sure that if it goes 'over the top' a little e-mail would clarify the situation to all crews at NTA. I do not have the power/right/authorization to disclose ANY informations if ever I had any about this case; but I'm pretty certain that people who left the company and still have ties within, would be very keen to publish their investigations..
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Thanks CL300, I accept the invitation.
The situation was as described. The crew arrived, it was too late for the handling agent to organise a visa for the FA. The captain elected to leave her at the terminal against her wishes and despite the fact that she was visibly upset. I do not know what, if anything, the FO had to say about the situation but it was the captains decision.
Some members of the NJE safety commitee view this as a CRM issue and want to investigate but are being blocked. Oddly enough the captain concerned is a member of said committee.
The situation was as described. The crew arrived, it was too late for the handling agent to organise a visa for the FA. The captain elected to leave her at the terminal against her wishes and despite the fact that she was visibly upset. I do not know what, if anything, the FO had to say about the situation but it was the captains decision.
Some members of the NJE safety commitee view this as a CRM issue and want to investigate but are being blocked. Oddly enough the captain concerned is a member of said committee.
oh no.....it wasn't HIM again?
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CL300.
It is not uncommon at all. I have frequently carried FA's with no visa. Provided the company has faxed the details to the FBO, it only takes about half an hour to get a temporary visa. The difficulty arises when they haven't. Legally the FA can only stay for three hours without a visa. After that, it becomes very much a question of who's in charge of immigration on that particular day.
Earlier this year, I arrived with not only an FA without a visa, but also both the passengers! We were supposed to transit, but could not leave until the passengers were sorted out. Netjets had not informed the pax that a visa was required! However, I have to wonder at the intelligence of a businessman who thought that Russia was visaless. Suffice it to say that Netjets were prepared to do anything rather than the obvious, which was to take the pax and the FA out of the country. At various times jail was a distinct possibility for all three. This did not seem to concern Netjets, only the possibility that we could not do the next sector! After about six hours of negotiations we finally departed for another country with the pax. We then of course found that we did not have enough hours left on the tour to do the trip anyway. Plus ca change. (Is that right?)
It is not uncommon at all. I have frequently carried FA's with no visa. Provided the company has faxed the details to the FBO, it only takes about half an hour to get a temporary visa. The difficulty arises when they haven't. Legally the FA can only stay for three hours without a visa. After that, it becomes very much a question of who's in charge of immigration on that particular day.
Earlier this year, I arrived with not only an FA without a visa, but also both the passengers! We were supposed to transit, but could not leave until the passengers were sorted out. Netjets had not informed the pax that a visa was required! However, I have to wonder at the intelligence of a businessman who thought that Russia was visaless. Suffice it to say that Netjets were prepared to do anything rather than the obvious, which was to take the pax and the FA out of the country. At various times jail was a distinct possibility for all three. This did not seem to concern Netjets, only the possibility that we could not do the next sector! After about six hours of negotiations we finally departed for another country with the pax. We then of course found that we did not have enough hours left on the tour to do the trip anyway. Plus ca change. (Is that right?)