NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues
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NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues
It seems that the Wannabes section is all abuzz, waiting for an announcement from Oxford Air Training www.oxfordaviation.net this Monday about a cadet pilot scheme for NetJets.
Surely this is madness, if true?
The entire marketing model is built around security and safety.
An ATPL holding (1500 hr+), experienced and well trained Co-Pilot is always going to be better than a kid with 250 hours, irrespective of his training.
NetJets Europe flew to 800 airports last year, on every continent. They flew to some of the most demanding Cat B and C airports - generally with very little notice for Crews and training that amounts to scant guidance on the back of a piece of paper.
Why on earth would they put a kid into that environment?
Lever.
Surely this is madness, if true?
The entire marketing model is built around security and safety.
An ATPL holding (1500 hr+), experienced and well trained Co-Pilot is always going to be better than a kid with 250 hours, irrespective of his training.
NetJets Europe flew to 800 airports last year, on every continent. They flew to some of the most demanding Cat B and C airports - generally with very little notice for Crews and training that amounts to scant guidance on the back of a piece of paper.
Why on earth would they put a kid into that environment?
Lever.
"The INTRODUCER"
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Lever,
I completely agree. Especially at a time when they should be bolstering their experience and safety credentials, what with new entrants like Jetbird et al just around the corner.
I'm curious, what crew requirements what you make if you were Netjets?
I completely agree. Especially at a time when they should be bolstering their experience and safety credentials, what with new entrants like Jetbird et al just around the corner.
I'm curious, what crew requirements what you make if you were Netjets?
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Hi,
I agree this is complete madness. It is not only a disgrace towards the owners but a search for a crash. Line trainers are already fighting to get 1500hour guys released and some are even considering resigning from this function. Is it worth loosing your licence our worse your life for...10%!
Ab initios will just generate more problems than they will help.
So far mentionning ab initios was a joke amongst us. Now we do not laugh anymore...we are scared.
This is a sign of panic sent by the management.
For the ones considering to apply...good luck you have a long long harsh way to go!
biz
I agree this is complete madness. It is not only a disgrace towards the owners but a search for a crash. Line trainers are already fighting to get 1500hour guys released and some are even considering resigning from this function. Is it worth loosing your licence our worse your life for...10%!
Ab initios will just generate more problems than they will help.
So far mentionning ab initios was a joke amongst us. Now we do not laugh anymore...we are scared.
This is a sign of panic sent by the management.
For the ones considering to apply...good luck you have a long long harsh way to go!
biz
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Lever,
You say that,
Well surely the same applies for all airline companies. Why on earth would they want to be seen as unsafe. That would mean that no company should take on an Ab-Initio "kid" because in your opinion they aren't safe!!
Bit of an insult don't you think. Personally i was lucky enough to walk straight out of my training and into a job with a major UK charter company, and i was flying the A320/21 around whilst i was still 19.
I suppose you think that when someone comes out of flying school they should be an instructor for a couple of years, then move to a regional turboprop operator for another couple of years before finally moving onto the so called 'shiny jet'.
Obviously quite a few companies don't think that and believe that hiring a low hours, recently graduated student, who hasn't had time to pick up any bad habbits or lose too much of the vast amount of info they've had to cram into their brain during the training, is a good thing. And in many cases they're right.
Just because you've got 1500+ hours and your ATPL is unfrozen doesn't neccesairly make you any safer than a low hours cadet. More experienced maybe but as we all know that can lead to its own problems. If it happens, give the guys/girls a chance, you might just be supprised!!
You say that,
The entire marketing model is built around security and safety.
Bit of an insult don't you think. Personally i was lucky enough to walk straight out of my training and into a job with a major UK charter company, and i was flying the A320/21 around whilst i was still 19.
I suppose you think that when someone comes out of flying school they should be an instructor for a couple of years, then move to a regional turboprop operator for another couple of years before finally moving onto the so called 'shiny jet'.
Obviously quite a few companies don't think that and believe that hiring a low hours, recently graduated student, who hasn't had time to pick up any bad habbits or lose too much of the vast amount of info they've had to cram into their brain during the training, is a good thing. And in many cases they're right.
Just because you've got 1500+ hours and your ATPL is unfrozen doesn't neccesairly make you any safer than a low hours cadet. More experienced maybe but as we all know that can lead to its own problems. If it happens, give the guys/girls a chance, you might just be supprised!!
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There is nothing wrong with the potential of a 21 year old with 250 hours of decent training.
But whichever way you cut it, he doesn't have any experience worth talking about.
A typical airline will have no more than 30 or 40 different destinations for a Co-Pilot to get familair with.
In NetJets he will have hundreds.
He'll fly into Cat B and C airfields from Day 1.
He fly into former CIS from Day 1.
He'll fly non-APU, nil support from Day 1.
He'll fly with Line Trainers who are totally maxed as it is.
He'll fly on business jets that get 2 - 3 times the number of flying hours each year than others of comparable type.
He'll fly for Owners who were promised 2 Captains on every flight.
He is screwed.
Lever
But whichever way you cut it, he doesn't have any experience worth talking about.
A typical airline will have no more than 30 or 40 different destinations for a Co-Pilot to get familair with.
In NetJets he will have hundreds.
He'll fly into Cat B and C airfields from Day 1.
He fly into former CIS from Day 1.
He'll fly non-APU, nil support from Day 1.
He'll fly with Line Trainers who are totally maxed as it is.
He'll fly on business jets that get 2 - 3 times the number of flying hours each year than others of comparable type.
He'll fly for Owners who were promised 2 Captains on every flight.
He is screwed.
Lever
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Ab-initios into NetJets will start off with the hard times at the beginning of their careers, unlike the older, lazier pilots.
Those having 1500hours and more would have been doing easy stuff, finding everything ready, perfect approaches etc, then go to NetJets and... surprise!
Has its ups and downs. Depends on each and everyone of us. That's why they have a rigorous selection process - to get the motivated, bright ones.
Those having 1500hours and more would have been doing easy stuff, finding everything ready, perfect approaches etc, then go to NetJets and... surprise!
Has its ups and downs. Depends on each and everyone of us. That's why they have a rigorous selection process - to get the motivated, bright ones.
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Why the presumption that you are only going to get 21 year old 250hr pilots? I'll be applying for the NetJet/OAT scheme, I'm not 21 (i'm not much more), and when I come out I may only have 250hrs, but what my face wont show is that I also have 10 years and about 700 hrs gliding - both in a competition and instructing enviroment. Motorgliding / Microlighting, they all add experience, not to the ATPL tho it appears....
I lost out to sponsored training due to 9/11 (had been accepted on a course which was subsequently cancelled) this gave me the opportunity of working in many areas of the aviation industry with many excellent people.
I've been lucky enough to fly a very wide range of fantastic aircraft - but lacking a full PPL(A), I can't log it. In an engineering environment, we flew all round the country maintaining customers planes, new strips, different weather, new types. None of this will show in a logbook, just photos and memories.
I am now a type rated (on big jets) LAE with a major UK Airline, and it is only now that I am in a position to fund myself to the next level and a move to flight deck.
Please don't tar all ab-initio wannabes with the same brush, I'm sure there are many out there who have been striving for this since they were very young. Unfortunately my background wasn't condusive to this career route, I've not been as lucky as some people I know - afterall mum and dad can't pay for me to go to oxford - but I'd like to go there and i've worked hard to get within half a chance of doing so.
Some of the comments here have been a little close to the edge, childish almost. I'm sure as a member of the flightdeck, there is a responsibility there to work with your colleagues as a team, if your colleague is fresh out of training, surely you give them a chance, and don't take him/her for face value, afterall, even YOU had to start somewhere....
I lost out to sponsored training due to 9/11 (had been accepted on a course which was subsequently cancelled) this gave me the opportunity of working in many areas of the aviation industry with many excellent people.
I've been lucky enough to fly a very wide range of fantastic aircraft - but lacking a full PPL(A), I can't log it. In an engineering environment, we flew all round the country maintaining customers planes, new strips, different weather, new types. None of this will show in a logbook, just photos and memories.
I am now a type rated (on big jets) LAE with a major UK Airline, and it is only now that I am in a position to fund myself to the next level and a move to flight deck.
Please don't tar all ab-initio wannabes with the same brush, I'm sure there are many out there who have been striving for this since they were very young. Unfortunately my background wasn't condusive to this career route, I've not been as lucky as some people I know - afterall mum and dad can't pay for me to go to oxford - but I'd like to go there and i've worked hard to get within half a chance of doing so.
Some of the comments here have been a little close to the edge, childish almost. I'm sure as a member of the flightdeck, there is a responsibility there to work with your colleagues as a team, if your colleague is fresh out of training, surely you give them a chance, and don't take him/her for face value, afterall, even YOU had to start somewhere....
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I think what those of you who have not worked for Netjets or any operation like it need to take into account is the amount of pressure put upon the crews on a daily basis, something not experienced by those flying back and forth to a limited number of destinations with dedicated backup at each end of the route.
The job is somewhat more difficult than working for an airline where the engineers, ground and cabin crew prepare the aircraft leaving the pilots to show up, board the aircraft, turn left and go flying (an oversimplification I know). There are no such things as fixed schedules, fixed routes and the like. Over and above flying the aircraft the crew are required to take care of catering, seek out weather and notams, liase with Ops over multiple changes and be in position nice and early to meet the passengers and load their baggage.
Without doubt this requires additional capacity which any ab initio pilot will struggle to have. Add to this the fact that many of the fleets do not have the room for safety pilots when the new guys are on board and you can see why the line trainers do not relish the prospect.
The job is somewhat more difficult than working for an airline where the engineers, ground and cabin crew prepare the aircraft leaving the pilots to show up, board the aircraft, turn left and go flying (an oversimplification I know). There are no such things as fixed schedules, fixed routes and the like. Over and above flying the aircraft the crew are required to take care of catering, seek out weather and notams, liase with Ops over multiple changes and be in position nice and early to meet the passengers and load their baggage.
Without doubt this requires additional capacity which any ab initio pilot will struggle to have. Add to this the fact that many of the fleets do not have the room for safety pilots when the new guys are on board and you can see why the line trainers do not relish the prospect.
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As a NetJets pilot, I am not against the program.
I think that we have an opportunity to move forward a few steps here. Up until now we have such a variety of backgrounds it is 'a challenge' to get everyone standardised. With the cadets the standards should be there from the start.
The training department is working very hard at setting up a program to expose the cadets to all the most commonly visited 'tricky' airports. - Before they fly with owners. They will not be let loose until the TRE/TRI and standards guys have approved their progress. They will fly with lots of line trainers who have a task ahead, granted, but some of the 'experienced' guys we have been training aren't so quick to change old habits and learn new procedures. A fresh approach might be just what we need. They will not be expecting to jump straight into the left hand seats, and so will be content to learn and absorb as much as they can, and vitally, gain experience on the job.
The Marketing department are well aware of what the owners are sold... they sold it to them.
They are going to have to explain to the owners that cadet pilots are only going to be flying with us when they have met the same standard as everyone else on the line. The Captain will not be a low houred cadet. Our TREs/TRIs, Standards Captains, Line trainers and Captains are on the whole a very level headed, solid bunch of professional guys and gals.
I hope that the cadets that succeed with us are going to rise to the challenge, and enjoy the job.
Nobody in the company has ever said that this is the easiest job in Europe, and it takes a certain type of person to fit in, but the people on the line are fun, friendly, and will welcome the new pilots with pleasure.
The Netjets critics will get all irritated by my post, but the vast majority of NetJets pilots will feel similarly to me.
Welcome to you all, and lets hope some of the Lisbon support people can make a few of their dreams come true with this chance to fly as well.
I think that we have an opportunity to move forward a few steps here. Up until now we have such a variety of backgrounds it is 'a challenge' to get everyone standardised. With the cadets the standards should be there from the start.
The training department is working very hard at setting up a program to expose the cadets to all the most commonly visited 'tricky' airports. - Before they fly with owners. They will not be let loose until the TRE/TRI and standards guys have approved their progress. They will fly with lots of line trainers who have a task ahead, granted, but some of the 'experienced' guys we have been training aren't so quick to change old habits and learn new procedures. A fresh approach might be just what we need. They will not be expecting to jump straight into the left hand seats, and so will be content to learn and absorb as much as they can, and vitally, gain experience on the job.
The Marketing department are well aware of what the owners are sold... they sold it to them.
They are going to have to explain to the owners that cadet pilots are only going to be flying with us when they have met the same standard as everyone else on the line. The Captain will not be a low houred cadet. Our TREs/TRIs, Standards Captains, Line trainers and Captains are on the whole a very level headed, solid bunch of professional guys and gals.
I hope that the cadets that succeed with us are going to rise to the challenge, and enjoy the job.
Nobody in the company has ever said that this is the easiest job in Europe, and it takes a certain type of person to fit in, but the people on the line are fun, friendly, and will welcome the new pilots with pleasure.
The Netjets critics will get all irritated by my post, but the vast majority of NetJets pilots will feel similarly to me.
Welcome to you all, and lets hope some of the Lisbon support people can make a few of their dreams come true with this chance to fly as well.
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If I'm not wrog there was a common belief that netjet pilot were the best...
Many companies advertise having/recruiting only the best. Makes me wonder though because if we all are the best, where are the crap ones? The company who has them must be very unlucky
Seriously though, there is no best best pilots but in my view only good training, SOPs, Safety culture and well maintained aircrafts.
With all that in place, we can then all play at being the best (if one fancies it).
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Aussie,
I doubt it, the direct entry FO should be able to be promoted to the LHS a lot quicker than the cadet FO.
I doubt it, the direct entry FO should be able to be promoted to the LHS a lot quicker than the cadet FO.
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NetJets
This scheme makes me laugh.....
I regularly get emails from Netjets telling me I need 1500hrs.
Now they go to Oxford and intend hiring teenagers with 250hrs of which only 150hrs max is actually flying an aircraft - no more than 100hrs of which is solo time....i.e. them making decisions for themselves.....most of it following a highway in Arizona.
Why isn't it a level playing field? Its all or nothing ?
I regularly get emails from Netjets telling me I need 1500hrs.
Now they go to Oxford and intend hiring teenagers with 250hrs of which only 150hrs max is actually flying an aircraft - no more than 100hrs of which is solo time....i.e. them making decisions for themselves.....most of it following a highway in Arizona.
Why isn't it a level playing field? Its all or nothing ?