NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues
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Agreed, I wish people would stop using the military example as a justification for the cadetship scheme in NJE. The selection, training, procedures and flying supervision are all a quantum leap above anything this scheme can provide. The best solution for NJE is to make the job so attractive, especially in terms of pay, benefits and conditions, that well trained experienced people will leave other companys to join.
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They get paid €50k per year and then have €20k per year deducted for training costs.
These deductions continue for 5 years.
So, a €30k per year salary, before tax.
So, the multi-millionaire owners have a young kid with no experience flying them around. The kid is earning so little money that he needs to eat their remaining catering to help him get by.
This has got to be the dumbest plan in NetJets history.
Lever
These deductions continue for 5 years.
So, a €30k per year salary, before tax.
So, the multi-millionaire owners have a young kid with no experience flying them around. The kid is earning so little money that he needs to eat their remaining catering to help him get by.
This has got to be the dumbest plan in NetJets history.
Lever
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One more thing about Military and Civilian Cadet scheme, may be a 21 years old pilot can fly the mission he have been trained for with a very different approach of safety culture than a civilian trained Pilot. if you look at the promotion of a cadets military Pilots 20 years later, in France around 40 to 50% died in mission, I even have a friend who is part of the 4 survivors out of a class of 14, take AF cadets and do the same ..very different result indeed.
Now to come back on Netjets, the problem is that there is no Safety culture in this Company exept the talking and the use of it for selling, Netjets is a great sales Company and customers think that this is the top of safety..in that their achievment is monumental. Netjets is managed at 80% by ex military Pilots without airline experience , their safety culture is the one of the Airforce that may explain the massive problem.
The last crew performance mesuring system that they try to implement or the best safety pilot award just reinforce our comment about their lack of maturity in the aviation safety area.
Now to come back on Netjets, the problem is that there is no Safety culture in this Company exept the talking and the use of it for selling, Netjets is a great sales Company and customers think that this is the top of safety..in that their achievment is monumental. Netjets is managed at 80% by ex military Pilots without airline experience , their safety culture is the one of the Airforce that may explain the massive problem.
The last crew performance mesuring system that they try to implement or the best safety pilot award just reinforce our comment about their lack of maturity in the aviation safety area.
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the best safety pilot award
Now there's a story worth sharing NJE toothless safety department invites crew to nominate candidates for an award for having contributed the most to safety within the company.
Crew respond by nominating two pilots who had submitted a Safety Report on their own level bust in a non-radar environment over north Africa (the captain was busted to FO and the FO seat locked in recognition of their honesty and desire to alert their colleagues to the problem).
Safety department responds by telling the crew that the nominations would not be accepted as they were 'inconvenient'.
And the 'pro' NJE gang wonder why the company is so unpopular with it's experienced crew?
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A 250hr new hire FO will be an FO for a very very very long time, great way to save money on upgrades.
The US regional airlines are doin it too. Some say the low time FO have no "real world" experience to base decisions on. I agree I also ask you this when does an FO make critical decisions ? in the cockpit virtualy never.
The "critical decision for them would be to work for 35k per year and be an FO for four + years and working under the premise that they are special cause they are ab-initio. They arent special they are pawns in a plan to save money.
May not be long from now when a veteren pilot will be looked over at an interview because a 250 or 500 hr kid will be a cheaper employee for a MUCH longer time period.
On another note how safe is it gonna be when you got a Captain who has just gotta prove he is master and commander and Gods gift to aviation to a Child in the right seat who is either bullied into submission or lacks the maturity to overlook a jerk next to him.
The US regional airlines are doin it too. Some say the low time FO have no "real world" experience to base decisions on. I agree I also ask you this when does an FO make critical decisions ? in the cockpit virtualy never.
The "critical decision for them would be to work for 35k per year and be an FO for four + years and working under the premise that they are special cause they are ab-initio. They arent special they are pawns in a plan to save money.
May not be long from now when a veteren pilot will be looked over at an interview because a 250 or 500 hr kid will be a cheaper employee for a MUCH longer time period.
On another note how safe is it gonna be when you got a Captain who has just gotta prove he is master and commander and Gods gift to aviation to a Child in the right seat who is either bullied into submission or lacks the maturity to overlook a jerk next to him.
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But Buger, surely the scenario you describe of steep command gradient, arsehole of a captain, bad CRM, call it what you will has always been with us?
I see what you're saying, that low time FO's in general might be more prone to this sort of bullying but I would like to think that in this enlightened age there are fewer of these captains around.
Then again.............................
I see what you're saying, that low time FO's in general might be more prone to this sort of bullying but I would like to think that in this enlightened age there are fewer of these captains around.
Then again.............................
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I honestly don't know what my point was in that last post. I was touching on a few things there I guess,
The winners in the ab-initio hiring program are: #1 The flight schools and all that entails fuel, maintanence administration and airport fees. All of this because of the increased popularity of ab-i programs. Why? because the newbies are getting jobs that were usually reserved for the proven pilots.
#2 winner flight departments who hire them. MONEY SAVINGS. ( however this could come back to bite them when the FO checks out very soon after having gone thru training ( these guys will be on there first job ever and the grass always seems greener somewhere else for a rookie )
What is gonna happen to the reputation of a quality company when an ab-i pilot is sitting up front when an airplane he is "sitting" gets bent ( I have seen many accident reports where one of the first things noted were the experience levels of the pilots) That makes great fodder for the nightly news.
Also gonna bite them when the paying customers see that crew includes a kid whose chewing gum and eyehumping his wife.(threw that one in for fun) you know just does not know how to behave cause he is a kid.
Oh well guess we will see where this goes.
The loser are time tested pilots who want these jobs, the guys with families, morgages and responsibilities. their gonna be pushed out for cheaper in the long run co-pilots. These kids will work for nothing and that is gonna drive payscales straight down !
I am in no way saying that newbies can't possibly do the job. Let em learn the old fashion way by actually working their way into a position of this sort.
Another group of losers are the captains who will fly with these guys doin so basicly single pilot. They are'nt gonna trust the guy for a long time and will add lots of stress to both pilots. that kinda stuff always spills out beyond the cockpit.
In no way are these absolute scenerios not every pilot is the same and of course situations vary.
That pay thing is gonna suck for sure.
As for the Captains treating FOs like crap... the atmosphere is ripe in this ab-i situation.
The winners in the ab-initio hiring program are: #1 The flight schools and all that entails fuel, maintanence administration and airport fees. All of this because of the increased popularity of ab-i programs. Why? because the newbies are getting jobs that were usually reserved for the proven pilots.
#2 winner flight departments who hire them. MONEY SAVINGS. ( however this could come back to bite them when the FO checks out very soon after having gone thru training ( these guys will be on there first job ever and the grass always seems greener somewhere else for a rookie )
What is gonna happen to the reputation of a quality company when an ab-i pilot is sitting up front when an airplane he is "sitting" gets bent ( I have seen many accident reports where one of the first things noted were the experience levels of the pilots) That makes great fodder for the nightly news.
Also gonna bite them when the paying customers see that crew includes a kid whose chewing gum and eyehumping his wife.(threw that one in for fun) you know just does not know how to behave cause he is a kid.
Oh well guess we will see where this goes.
The loser are time tested pilots who want these jobs, the guys with families, morgages and responsibilities. their gonna be pushed out for cheaper in the long run co-pilots. These kids will work for nothing and that is gonna drive payscales straight down !
I am in no way saying that newbies can't possibly do the job. Let em learn the old fashion way by actually working their way into a position of this sort.
Another group of losers are the captains who will fly with these guys doin so basicly single pilot. They are'nt gonna trust the guy for a long time and will add lots of stress to both pilots. that kinda stuff always spills out beyond the cockpit.
In no way are these absolute scenerios not every pilot is the same and of course situations vary.
That pay thing is gonna suck for sure.
As for the Captains treating FOs like crap... the atmosphere is ripe in this ab-i situation.
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ab initio
I am extremly intrested in becoming a pilot and have looked hard into a many possibilites. The ab initio pilot scheme i believe would benefit operators such as Netjets and larger operators such as Cathay/Dragonair (cadetship) as it provides young fresh faces into the cockpits of new and modern fleets. I agree, whilst these 'kids' may not have the wealth of hands on experience that line checkers, captains etc may have they are suitabally qualified otherwise they would not be sat their in the business end of an a/c!! i think a sharp learning curve is perhaps what is a key priority to their success (in defence of us youths!) and the prosperity of the operator.
bjbb
bjbb
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That's not very nice Mike.
Someone takes the time to write and offer to help you prepare for your next job and you turn him down?
Not friendly at all.
Someone takes the time to write and offer to help you prepare for your next job and you turn him down?
Not friendly at all.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Smeagel,
I got the same PM. I wrote back asking what exactly he wanted as I already worked for NJE.
This was the reply
I replied back that perhaps he should do a search as daily life has already been posted.
So it's not just Mike being targeted. May I give him your details?
I got the same PM. I wrote back asking what exactly he wanted as I already worked for NJE.
This was the reply
sorry i believed you was preparing the netjets/oat selections. sorry again.
As you fly for NJE, i will appreciate to ask you by phone some details of your daily life with netjets.
As you fly for NJE, i will appreciate to ask you by phone some details of your daily life with netjets.
So it's not just Mike being targeted. May I give him your details?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
nah.
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Cadet Scheme
Personally I think that this is a very good scheme. I would hope that the selection process will give Netjets the calibre of recruit required with the necessary ability and motivation. I've had the process described to me and it's almost like that done by the military. The military get them young as well and they have to do a bit more than take pax from A to B in a safe, comfortable environment. I don't think the old hands need worry too much as there will always be a requirement for experience at Netjets. This may be somewhat experimental but I hope it works.
The only drawback I can see at the moment is the number of cancelled (empty) line training trips. Can't imagine it happening when the jet is needed for a revenue trip. Maybe the whole thing can be planned so that line training happens in the dead season.
The only drawback I can see at the moment is the number of cancelled (empty) line training trips. Can't imagine it happening when the jet is needed for a revenue trip. Maybe the whole thing can be planned so that line training happens in the dead season.
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Used to be that almost every other sector was a positioning flight. If that's still the case, line training (HP) can be done on the empty sectors.
I even had a line trainer tried to tell me that only captains were allowed to fly with pax on board. He was soon corrected on that score. Probably more to do with him hoping to keep the tip.
I even had a line trainer tried to tell me that only captains were allowed to fly with pax on board. He was soon corrected on that score. Probably more to do with him hoping to keep the tip.
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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Falconbis
I don't know what your experience of military safety culture is, but in the military I was in we saw a huge change around 15-16 years ago. From that point on operating safely and flight safety generally became a major priority. Please do not fall into the trap of putting down the military based on outdated views of its attitude to safety, yes, when I went through military training nearly 25 years ago my instructors had similar tales about being one of 2 or 3 survivors of a class of 20 from years before, notably those deaths were in accidents not in combat! Those days are gone, the accident rate in relation to the highly demanding environment of many military ops is very low.
The part of the air force I flew in for my last 10 years in the military we suffered no aircraft losses and no deaths, despite operating in a highly dynamic and reactive environment in the worst weather going, with no notice tasking, not closely supervised and being relied upon to work with all kinds of different agencies and make literally life and death decisions for our "customers" on the spot. I also regularly flew with 250 hour pilots in the other seat, in what was very definitely a crew environment. My overwhelming opinion of these "kids" was how mature and capable they were, and how I wished I had been that good at their stage. Of course they were highly motivated, had been carefully selected and very well trained, amazing how good the product can be if you get that bit right!
I don't know what your experience of military safety culture is, but in the military I was in we saw a huge change around 15-16 years ago. From that point on operating safely and flight safety generally became a major priority. Please do not fall into the trap of putting down the military based on outdated views of its attitude to safety, yes, when I went through military training nearly 25 years ago my instructors had similar tales about being one of 2 or 3 survivors of a class of 20 from years before, notably those deaths were in accidents not in combat! Those days are gone, the accident rate in relation to the highly demanding environment of many military ops is very low.
The part of the air force I flew in for my last 10 years in the military we suffered no aircraft losses and no deaths, despite operating in a highly dynamic and reactive environment in the worst weather going, with no notice tasking, not closely supervised and being relied upon to work with all kinds of different agencies and make literally life and death decisions for our "customers" on the spot. I also regularly flew with 250 hour pilots in the other seat, in what was very definitely a crew environment. My overwhelming opinion of these "kids" was how mature and capable they were, and how I wished I had been that good at their stage. Of course they were highly motivated, had been carefully selected and very well trained, amazing how good the product can be if you get that bit right!
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They get paid €50k per year and then have €20k per year deducted for training costs.
These deductions continue for 5 years.
So, a €30k per year salary, before tax.
Quick money making tip for the Ab-Initio:
5 times 20K Euro is 100K Euro that they take away from you.
A typerating citation Bravo is only 15K USD = 10,5K Euro.
So you lose(they steal) 89.500 Euro from you in 5 years.
Go to the states, do they typerating yourself, spend 10,5 K Euro, join desperate businesscompanies(NOT NETJETS) and after 2 years join the airlines.
NOW WHAT ABOUT THAT ?
These deductions continue for 5 years.
So, a €30k per year salary, before tax.
Quick money making tip for the Ab-Initio:
5 times 20K Euro is 100K Euro that they take away from you.
A typerating citation Bravo is only 15K USD = 10,5K Euro.
So you lose(they steal) 89.500 Euro from you in 5 years.
Go to the states, do they typerating yourself, spend 10,5 K Euro, join desperate businesscompanies(NOT NETJETS) and after 2 years join the airlines.
NOW WHAT ABOUT THAT ?