NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues
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That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.
The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)
I doubt it.
So this is how this oxford idea will end up sooner or later in a drama.
I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................
The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)
I doubt it.
So this is how this oxford idea will end up sooner or later in a drama.
I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................
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The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)
I doubt it
I doubt it
No sims for Cat Bs in airlines or NJE (unless there is something the training department feels they want you to see or learn about)
Cat Cs are different though but there again you do not need to go in the Sim to operate into it. It may or may not be required.
NJE definitely puts you in the Sim for Chambery, City, Innsbruck and I got to do Sion as well (for Info though).
This post must be a joke but I bite anyway...
That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.
I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................
What about if BA sends a Captain with a failing heart who then decides to "dive" on the wrong very remote Island before dying ? Do you think his 250 hours FO would be in a better position to recover from that ?
Maybe yes, maybe not, just as in the case of that pretty ridiculous example posted above.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0215; 13th Feb 2007 at 17:13.
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"And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them."
2604, airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA.
as Barista pointed out it could be interesting for ex mil with pensions or oldtimers from the airliners or the ab-initio building time. Every pilot with a bit of sense of career drive, jobsecurity and a bit of ego cannot honestly say he is not interested flying the airlines.
The ex-airliners that fly with NJE are there because NJE was the only one hiring when they all lost their job after 9-11, they did not pick it as a career choice. They stay until they are fed up or screwed around to much or when the old airline job comes along...
But he, you stay with the "best of the best" or "the best the industry has to offer "as they like themselves to be called and live in your pink world, then I continue with what the real world considers as the real professionals.
and AMEX, being in NJE for a while you should know better. Pilots are being send to unknown airports on a daily bases. Cat B should be self brief, but where is that briefing when you need it? Right, so you leave again unbriefed, and Netjets has qualified Samedan as cat B, but this is not a place for the novice pilot as you well know. Cat C must be trained in the sim, or with a qualified instructor, or as an observer. Check your Part a and b. Netjets has done a few airports in the sim, other cat c you are send by yourself and you can "self-instruct" yourself and your ab-initio, That is the way it goes, safety my ...sh and contrary to the rules. No airline does that. they do send you there first as an observer or with a qualified TRI, if not trained in the sim.
But hey, you guys are the hotshots and don't need that training and you do not complain so the managers like you. and we, the airline minded-safety-minded guys are the "difficult" bad chaps right?
But we all know how it will end.......in airdisaster.com and then we will shake our heads and regret we accepted all the violations to continue for so long.......
2604, airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA.
as Barista pointed out it could be interesting for ex mil with pensions or oldtimers from the airliners or the ab-initio building time. Every pilot with a bit of sense of career drive, jobsecurity and a bit of ego cannot honestly say he is not interested flying the airlines.
The ex-airliners that fly with NJE are there because NJE was the only one hiring when they all lost their job after 9-11, they did not pick it as a career choice. They stay until they are fed up or screwed around to much or when the old airline job comes along...
But he, you stay with the "best of the best" or "the best the industry has to offer "as they like themselves to be called and live in your pink world, then I continue with what the real world considers as the real professionals.
and AMEX, being in NJE for a while you should know better. Pilots are being send to unknown airports on a daily bases. Cat B should be self brief, but where is that briefing when you need it? Right, so you leave again unbriefed, and Netjets has qualified Samedan as cat B, but this is not a place for the novice pilot as you well know. Cat C must be trained in the sim, or with a qualified instructor, or as an observer. Check your Part a and b. Netjets has done a few airports in the sim, other cat c you are send by yourself and you can "self-instruct" yourself and your ab-initio, That is the way it goes, safety my ...sh and contrary to the rules. No airline does that. they do send you there first as an observer or with a qualified TRI, if not trained in the sim.
But hey, you guys are the hotshots and don't need that training and you do not complain so the managers like you. and we, the airline minded-safety-minded guys are the "difficult" bad chaps right?
But we all know how it will end.......in airdisaster.com and then we will shake our heads and regret we accepted all the violations to continue for so long.......
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From Space Pig
How do you know 2604 doesn't come from an airline and hasn't passed tough airline assessments before getting in NJE ?
I come from a long existing airline (with the tests you are talking about), reputable at all levels and which hasn't gone bust yet so the choice to come to NJE was made after considering all aspects of such move. Call me lucky but I had the choice to come to NJE or continue flying the big stuff for a lot more cash.
And what is strange about it ? Be in GA or even in the large charter operators world such as Britannia/Thomsonfly, Thomas Cook etc...
Well if it comes to it, the company sends us PART C on CD ROMs, I have it on my laptop which I carry with me. Perhaps an old habit from my previous company which had all books and documentations on laptops supplied to all its 650 pilots but I have learnt to use it that way.
Err I thought that's what I had said. Apart from the fact that Part B cover Type Specific instructions and operations only. I do not see where it refers to operations in Cat C airports.
On the other hand Part C is where you will find the relevant information.
As said above, you are not the only airline guy here (and not a sacked one either). I would consider myself fairly safety minded to the point that I would say "no" to something I don't like. If I have to get the sack for it then that's ok by me, I have done it in the past and thanks to that, I am still alive today before accidents took place (which they did ).
"And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them."
2604, airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA.
2604, airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA.
The ex-airliners that fly with NJE are there because NJE was the only one hiring when they all lost their job after 9-11, they did not pick it as a career choice.
Pilots are being send to unknown airports on a daily bases
B should be self brief, but where is that briefing when you need it?
Cat C must be trained in the sim, or with a qualified instructor, or as an observer. Check your Part a and b.
On the other hand Part C is where you will find the relevant information.
But hey, you guys are the hotshots and don't need that training and you do not complain so the managers like you. and we, the airline minded-safety-minded guys are the "difficult" bad chaps right?
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I am a line trainer for a GA company not netjets. I have trained both "250 hour pilots" and those with turboprop/air taxi/instructor background.
The first thing that suprises me about netjets choosing OAT is the structure of the FTO. Oxford prides itself and markets itself as an "Airline training" school, the whole ethos and set up is highly structured to prepare students for the airlines and structured is not the best description of GA. Oxford is geared to "airline preperation", and to the best of my knowledge, having alot of experience of OAT, I have never heard GA spoken of as anything but a fullback if you can't get into an airline.
The APP has moved so far from the old CAA coure. The "supervised " solo time logged is conducted with an instructor on board, teaching as this is considered as necessary to get students through with the reduced amount of a/c flying. I do not believe this helps with the decision making skills and self reliance you need for GA.
Others have discussed the number of airfields, often cat B and C, but what about the many with no handling or ATC. I have conducted line training when I have had to conduct pax through a mile of red tape. When I returned to the a/c we needed to be ready to go. 7 sector days, VFR hops low level to avoid slot delays and 10 minute turnarounds. The operation does not have the luxary of support and set routes that airlines enjoy to bring on low hour pilots.
The 1500hrs meant pilots with an actual aviation background. What advantage is this to line training? Well radio work would be my first point, even an instructor is using and is up to speed with RT, a big help. Instructors and Air taxi pilots have had to organise fueling, booking out, flight plans, wx often from the same type of non pilot friendly places we operate too. They have experience of customer service vital to corporate work. Also airmanship which can only be taught up too a point, but grows with time in the air. Independance and decision making, when a flight is delayed and the turnaround is reduced, you are spliting duties with the captain often stuck in the handlers 20 mins from the a/c unable to supervise every detail, a factor that rarely affects airliners with ground staff and cabin crew.
I have however seen some low hour pilots come into GA with no problems, however these were generally older with previous "life experience". Having been in OAT today my conclusion must be that the 18-22 year old that oxford will send forward will not be what the company is looking for and I believe for the already unhappy line trainers, that I know at Netjets, they will be put under much more pressure.
The first thing that suprises me about netjets choosing OAT is the structure of the FTO. Oxford prides itself and markets itself as an "Airline training" school, the whole ethos and set up is highly structured to prepare students for the airlines and structured is not the best description of GA. Oxford is geared to "airline preperation", and to the best of my knowledge, having alot of experience of OAT, I have never heard GA spoken of as anything but a fullback if you can't get into an airline.
The APP has moved so far from the old CAA coure. The "supervised " solo time logged is conducted with an instructor on board, teaching as this is considered as necessary to get students through with the reduced amount of a/c flying. I do not believe this helps with the decision making skills and self reliance you need for GA.
Others have discussed the number of airfields, often cat B and C, but what about the many with no handling or ATC. I have conducted line training when I have had to conduct pax through a mile of red tape. When I returned to the a/c we needed to be ready to go. 7 sector days, VFR hops low level to avoid slot delays and 10 minute turnarounds. The operation does not have the luxary of support and set routes that airlines enjoy to bring on low hour pilots.
The 1500hrs meant pilots with an actual aviation background. What advantage is this to line training? Well radio work would be my first point, even an instructor is using and is up to speed with RT, a big help. Instructors and Air taxi pilots have had to organise fueling, booking out, flight plans, wx often from the same type of non pilot friendly places we operate too. They have experience of customer service vital to corporate work. Also airmanship which can only be taught up too a point, but grows with time in the air. Independance and decision making, when a flight is delayed and the turnaround is reduced, you are spliting duties with the captain often stuck in the handlers 20 mins from the a/c unable to supervise every detail, a factor that rarely affects airliners with ground staff and cabin crew.
I have however seen some low hour pilots come into GA with no problems, however these were generally older with previous "life experience". Having been in OAT today my conclusion must be that the 18-22 year old that oxford will send forward will not be what the company is looking for and I believe for the already unhappy line trainers, that I know at Netjets, they will be put under much more pressure.
Last edited by African Drunk; 13th Feb 2007 at 23:46. Reason: Tiredness and so trying to improve grammar + spelling
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space pig. Difficult tests?!! Please allow me to laugh. Like Amex I was lucky enough to have both options. And I don't feel the need to be a flying bus driver. Even for better Terms and Conditions. Life is extremely short and I want to enjoy every bit of it. And I work for a company like Netjets because I enjoy it. So no more unjustified insults please.
If you feel you'll be better off in all aspect with an airline, fair enough. It's your choice (if you have one). But you shouldn't try to spoil someone else's.
I welcome the cadets. If they can taxi in Munchen, they can fly into Samedan.
If you feel you'll be better off in all aspect with an airline, fair enough. It's your choice (if you have one). But you shouldn't try to spoil someone else's.
I welcome the cadets. If they can taxi in Munchen, they can fly into Samedan.
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2604 said
So your opinion is the only correct one? How arogant.
For other places to go you just have to look outside the cozy world of Netjets. There are many, many jobs to be filled. If you are UK base so many more too.
No barista. space pig is not right. You just agree with him/her
And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them.
And perhaps you'd care to tell us where to go exactly. Especially to the ones who would like to stay in GA because airline flying is not for them.
So your opinion is the only correct one? How arogant.
For other places to go you just have to look outside the cozy world of Netjets. There are many, many jobs to be filled. If you are UK base so many more too.
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Barista, please do not make me say what I haven't said. My opinion is mine and only mine. Not the correct one nor the wrong one. As his yours and everybody else's.
"The cozy world of Netjets". Exactly!!! I would have never been able to put it so right. But again that's only my opinion. And yours (you said it yourself).
You are welcome to all those many jobs. For the last two years at least the low cost airlines have been looking for over 700 flight crews. And as I've been told eventhough Netjets require a 90 day notice period they wouldn't stand chance in a court of law. And.......you're complaining about Netjets. Bravo.
Perhaps you could take your hat off and give those cadets a chance. Allow them to decide for themselves. Let them find the balance. It wouldn' be kind to burn the bridges before they get on the other side. And don't burn it either once they are on the other side so that they can cross it back if they feel like/need/want it (see different thread)
Oh and does the Earth go around clockwise or anti-clockwise? Or any other way for that matter?
Sorry not that much knowledge only opinions. Ta
"The cozy world of Netjets". Exactly!!! I would have never been able to put it so right. But again that's only my opinion. And yours (you said it yourself).
You are welcome to all those many jobs. For the last two years at least the low cost airlines have been looking for over 700 flight crews. And as I've been told eventhough Netjets require a 90 day notice period they wouldn't stand chance in a court of law. And.......you're complaining about Netjets. Bravo.
Perhaps you could take your hat off and give those cadets a chance. Allow them to decide for themselves. Let them find the balance. It wouldn' be kind to burn the bridges before they get on the other side. And don't burn it either once they are on the other side so that they can cross it back if they feel like/need/want it (see different thread)
Oh and does the Earth go around clockwise or anti-clockwise? Or any other way for that matter?
Sorry not that much knowledge only opinions. Ta
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Welcome In Hell
Hello All,
Amusing to see the various views from the insiders and outsiders. I have been in the company for years and can tell you it will not work. Actually, when the CRJ crashed in Russia, I thought it could be one of ours!
- Amex, Taxiing in Munich is one thing, landing safely in Samedan is another one because taxiing is on the ground!!!
- A cat B airport must have a circling. Yes, but if you know the jar op1, you obviously don't know Sion. There is a circling but very few aircraft can legally and safely go there (125kt) and do the circling and or a missed approach (go around 2,5%from 8000ft to 12200ft).
Flying is not that simple especially with Nje...
I am just waiting ...for the crash. It is the logical next step.
Amusing to see the various views from the insiders and outsiders. I have been in the company for years and can tell you it will not work. Actually, when the CRJ crashed in Russia, I thought it could be one of ours!
- Amex, Taxiing in Munich is one thing, landing safely in Samedan is another one because taxiing is on the ground!!!
- A cat B airport must have a circling. Yes, but if you know the jar op1, you obviously don't know Sion. There is a circling but very few aircraft can legally and safely go there (125kt) and do the circling and or a missed approach (go around 2,5%from 8000ft to 12200ft).
Flying is not that simple especially with Nje...
I am just waiting ...for the crash. It is the logical next step.
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- A cat B airport must have a circling. Yes, but if you know the jar op1, you obviously don't know Sion
Amex, Taxiing in Munich is one thing, landing safely in Samedan is another one because taxiing is on the ground!!!
One thing though.
I am just waiting ...for the crash. It is the logical next step.
Because if I was that certain a "crash" is going to take place under circumstances you have now identified, I would feel bad if such event was to take place when I could have done something to avoid it. Waiting for a crash to happen as you put it is a bit strange in my view.
I do agree though that "Oxford" always had a negative view on GA and I m suprised they find it an acceptable form of aviation now. I guess it is to do with money and nothing else.
I also agree that OAT is not geared up towards training GA pilots since they have never done it nor been interested in doing it.
Finally I agree that it will put a lot pressure on the already stretched training department, the trainers in company expanding quite rapidly.
I welcome cadets but also realise a cadet scheme of that size is a first in this industry, therefore bringing a lot of question marks.
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"If it is how you feel, why not raise your concerns to the INAC or whatever other Aviation body you think should be informed of such situation ?
Because if I was that certain a "crash" is going to take place under circumstances you have now identified, I would feel bad if such event was to take place when I could have done something to avoid it. Waiting for a crash to happen as you put it is a bit strange in my view."
AMEX, what Bizantin is saying is what many people think, but what can be done about it? You have a point that we should not wait until an accident happens but all the complaints we have about Netjets form many of the necessary ingredients . Let me name a few:
-Work and rest limitations(travel day 1 and 6, 15 min showtimes, continious short turnarounds-the pressure is always on)
-Items carried, even though the MEL in many cases doesn't allow it, with the result that multiple items are carried which increases the risk of the flight (snowbal effect)
-Badly trained crews, (quick Flightsafety courses with no SOP training, linetrainers can often start over again);linetrainers forced to sign people off early because of commercial pressure.
-overal experience is dropping, very few experienced airline and or military step in nowadays, unlike before. Ab -initio is going to make these things worse, in many places we go you need your collegue 120%, you can't have the linetrainers cope with that more than they allready do and what about the "ordinary" captains, they are becoming linetrainers too because these chaps are way to early signed off. Not the poor chaps fault, some just take a bit more time, but that time will not be given by NJE.
-Fleetmanagers that do not defend crews but defend the companies interest. The good guys that did defend us were quickly removed, we all know their names.
Now the day will come and I agree fully with Bizantin, that the fatal mix of a over tired crew,in the 5thd flight of the day on day 5, with an airplane flying with many outstanding technical items, is going to an unfamiliar place in the mountains in marginal weather, and the crew is a just released very low time FO, still not fully ready and his captain just did his upgrade but has the min. time required and has not got any captain experience.
Will things go ok ? perhaps, because like many times it does, but the situations described above is not a rare occasion, but happens on a daily basis. the day will come that it is just to much
unfortunately.......
Nobody wants that,
But don't say we have not warned anybody, ALL PILOTS in NJE recognizes what is said above and realize the potential disaster, Management knows our complaints for years..
And INAC? Netjets is Inac, ever heard of CC? that was his job, keeping relations well.
yes I am negative, many are, because we care or cared, that is why I and many other left, it was a fight we will never win. Only an accident will open people's eyes. That is how it always goes, sadly enough. Always too late.................
Because if I was that certain a "crash" is going to take place under circumstances you have now identified, I would feel bad if such event was to take place when I could have done something to avoid it. Waiting for a crash to happen as you put it is a bit strange in my view."
AMEX, what Bizantin is saying is what many people think, but what can be done about it? You have a point that we should not wait until an accident happens but all the complaints we have about Netjets form many of the necessary ingredients . Let me name a few:
-Work and rest limitations(travel day 1 and 6, 15 min showtimes, continious short turnarounds-the pressure is always on)
-Items carried, even though the MEL in many cases doesn't allow it, with the result that multiple items are carried which increases the risk of the flight (snowbal effect)
-Badly trained crews, (quick Flightsafety courses with no SOP training, linetrainers can often start over again);linetrainers forced to sign people off early because of commercial pressure.
-overal experience is dropping, very few experienced airline and or military step in nowadays, unlike before. Ab -initio is going to make these things worse, in many places we go you need your collegue 120%, you can't have the linetrainers cope with that more than they allready do and what about the "ordinary" captains, they are becoming linetrainers too because these chaps are way to early signed off. Not the poor chaps fault, some just take a bit more time, but that time will not be given by NJE.
-Fleetmanagers that do not defend crews but defend the companies interest. The good guys that did defend us were quickly removed, we all know their names.
Now the day will come and I agree fully with Bizantin, that the fatal mix of a over tired crew,in the 5thd flight of the day on day 5, with an airplane flying with many outstanding technical items, is going to an unfamiliar place in the mountains in marginal weather, and the crew is a just released very low time FO, still not fully ready and his captain just did his upgrade but has the min. time required and has not got any captain experience.
Will things go ok ? perhaps, because like many times it does, but the situations described above is not a rare occasion, but happens on a daily basis. the day will come that it is just to much
unfortunately.......
Nobody wants that,
But don't say we have not warned anybody, ALL PILOTS in NJE recognizes what is said above and realize the potential disaster, Management knows our complaints for years..
And INAC? Netjets is Inac, ever heard of CC? that was his job, keeping relations well.
yes I am negative, many are, because we care or cared, that is why I and many other left, it was a fight we will never win. Only an accident will open people's eyes. That is how it always goes, sadly enough. Always too late.................
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Totally agree with you space pig. Going to INAC would not change anything. They sign what Netjets wants them to sign. Only a crash would open their eyes...only a crash.
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Going to INAC would not change anything. They sign what Netjets wants them to sign.
Without going to the INAC, there is an organisation called the CHIRP (http://www.chirp.co.uk/main/Aviation.htm) where you could write to(anonymously I believe) and raise your concern.
Sometimes if they believe there is ground for it, an enquiry might get triggered.
The CHIRP is a worthwile organisation !!! A lot to be learnt from the reports.
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Don't smile while waiting for the crash !
Hi there,
What a shame to read from you, Bizentin, Space pig and others ! You're firing at Netjets with an amazing pleasure ! Do you think NJE is the only company sending its crews in difficult places ? Come back on earth guys !! If you need a sim session for every airfield you practice, that's really sad...and you're dangerous ! Dangerous because you seem to believe that it will protect you against danger. Wrong ! Because you'll always have the failure you don't expect at the worst moment ! I'm not against a sim if possible, but not doing one doesn't mean the company is driven by fools !
Air Force planes worldwide are driven by 25 years old captains (Fighters or transport) going anywhere on short delay without special training. They don't crash everyday despite the risks. Why ? Because they are aware !
Air France is crashing a plane every 2 years (Douala, Toronto, Cayenne, Mont St Odile, Absheim...) and they are "the best trained pilots in the world" They spend their time on CRM courses and sim session ! They got a BIG problem in their company, despite the fact they act in the way you feel "the best way"
I'm flight instructor, SFI and line examinator, I think I know a little bit my job. Pilots we instruct are well formated...so well that they are often paralized when an event occurs which is not is the SOP's or Emer CL !! Modern planes made us act like robots. It's safe. But as a Captain, you must think as a aviator, and sometime Return to basics when things go wrong. Unfortunately, pilots don't know their basics anymore. That's the dangerous aspect of writing everything and working like parrots !
How can you say that GA pilots fly GA because they can't expect better ! Who are you guys ? Astronauts?! I'm afraid to see that cockpits are filed with so narrow minded people !! You must be a interesting study case for CRM in the "mutual respect" subtitle !!
I flew Falcons for many years and now I fly a big Airbus. You'll be surprise to learn that I regret every day my former Falcons. Not only those "GA" planes are wonderful tools, but also they fly fantastic missions. I'm loosing my time on 15 destinations with my big truck. I respect the ones who dream of spending 13 hours in a 777 or a 380. I now dream of flying again a Falcon between short airfields.
I don't feel that I make a mistake acting so: Like AMEX, I want to enjoy my job and my life ! You should do the same without considering light weight aircrafts as dangerous insects !!
What a shame to read from you, Bizentin, Space pig and others ! You're firing at Netjets with an amazing pleasure ! Do you think NJE is the only company sending its crews in difficult places ? Come back on earth guys !! If you need a sim session for every airfield you practice, that's really sad...and you're dangerous ! Dangerous because you seem to believe that it will protect you against danger. Wrong ! Because you'll always have the failure you don't expect at the worst moment ! I'm not against a sim if possible, but not doing one doesn't mean the company is driven by fools !
Air Force planes worldwide are driven by 25 years old captains (Fighters or transport) going anywhere on short delay without special training. They don't crash everyday despite the risks. Why ? Because they are aware !
Air France is crashing a plane every 2 years (Douala, Toronto, Cayenne, Mont St Odile, Absheim...) and they are "the best trained pilots in the world" They spend their time on CRM courses and sim session ! They got a BIG problem in their company, despite the fact they act in the way you feel "the best way"
I'm flight instructor, SFI and line examinator, I think I know a little bit my job. Pilots we instruct are well formated...so well that they are often paralized when an event occurs which is not is the SOP's or Emer CL !! Modern planes made us act like robots. It's safe. But as a Captain, you must think as a aviator, and sometime Return to basics when things go wrong. Unfortunately, pilots don't know their basics anymore. That's the dangerous aspect of writing everything and working like parrots !
How can you say that GA pilots fly GA because they can't expect better ! Who are you guys ? Astronauts?! I'm afraid to see that cockpits are filed with so narrow minded people !! You must be a interesting study case for CRM in the "mutual respect" subtitle !!
I flew Falcons for many years and now I fly a big Airbus. You'll be surprise to learn that I regret every day my former Falcons. Not only those "GA" planes are wonderful tools, but also they fly fantastic missions. I'm loosing my time on 15 destinations with my big truck. I respect the ones who dream of spending 13 hours in a 777 or a 380. I now dream of flying again a Falcon between short airfields.
I don't feel that I make a mistake acting so: Like AMEX, I want to enjoy my job and my life ! You should do the same without considering light weight aircrafts as dangerous insects !!
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Good evening Barista,
Nothing to hide,
0 hour 0 minute under Netjets flag !!
But disregard Netjets, my purpose was about the whole industry. I can't understand why some people spend so much energy to badmouth companies !
Times are hard and I think no company is perfect. But I'm sure NJE isn't the worst...but it's the most famous ! We should have surprised browsing the behaviours of some small companies trying to survive...
Anyway, as I said, if you take Air France, there way of working seems fantastic, they're a "Major" but they are at the bottom place regarding safety (50th or so)...the worst company among the majors ! Sim session and courses don't make it all. Pressure is everywhere, in the majors too...
I'm not here to say that NJE is the best place to be, because I have no clue to say it is, and I have no clue to say it's not!
I'm just surprised to see people so agressive in their posts ! Their critics are really not constructive but only destructive. How to they behave in a cockpit..? I wonder...
Nothing to hide,
0 hour 0 minute under Netjets flag !!
But disregard Netjets, my purpose was about the whole industry. I can't understand why some people spend so much energy to badmouth companies !
Times are hard and I think no company is perfect. But I'm sure NJE isn't the worst...but it's the most famous ! We should have surprised browsing the behaviours of some small companies trying to survive...
Anyway, as I said, if you take Air France, there way of working seems fantastic, they're a "Major" but they are at the bottom place regarding safety (50th or so)...the worst company among the majors ! Sim session and courses don't make it all. Pressure is everywhere, in the majors too...
I'm not here to say that NJE is the best place to be, because I have no clue to say it is, and I have no clue to say it's not!
I'm just surprised to see people so agressive in their posts ! Their critics are really not constructive but only destructive. How to they behave in a cockpit..? I wonder...
Join Date: Nov 2006
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"I can't understand why some people spend so much energy to badmouth companies !"
FLY ME TO THE MOON, regarding your phrase above, and what you have said about Air France seems to be a contradiction in terms.
Point two I would like to make is that you should not mix apples with oranges. Air France does a great job training people in and outside the sim, but regretably have one big issue that is causing all these incidents and that is communication/hiarchie. A captain is regarded as God and should not be questioned. That is why they pay a price from time to time. That does not mean they don't train people well in other ways, they do that excellent.
Finally, and Barista allready pointed that out to you, we are talking about Netjets. Yes, we bring the bad stuff out and it stinks, but the opposite thing to do is stick your head in the sand and pretend if nothing is happening, or worse , wait until it happens.
Some old aviator told me once that when you feel you are put under pressure by your company(e.g. to brake the rules or force you to do something you do not want to do), you must look at your list of priorities:
1.)your life-Cannot be replaced....
2.)your licence-can give you another job, but no licence , no job
3.)your (current)job-least important.
Think about it, Netjets is often not worth it.
FLY ME TO THE MOON, regarding your phrase above, and what you have said about Air France seems to be a contradiction in terms.
Point two I would like to make is that you should not mix apples with oranges. Air France does a great job training people in and outside the sim, but regretably have one big issue that is causing all these incidents and that is communication/hiarchie. A captain is regarded as God and should not be questioned. That is why they pay a price from time to time. That does not mean they don't train people well in other ways, they do that excellent.
Finally, and Barista allready pointed that out to you, we are talking about Netjets. Yes, we bring the bad stuff out and it stinks, but the opposite thing to do is stick your head in the sand and pretend if nothing is happening, or worse , wait until it happens.
Some old aviator told me once that when you feel you are put under pressure by your company(e.g. to brake the rules or force you to do something you do not want to do), you must look at your list of priorities:
1.)your life-Cannot be replaced....
2.)your licence-can give you another job, but no licence , no job
3.)your (current)job-least important.
Think about it, Netjets is often not worth it.
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Space Pig
Where did you pick up that complete load of old twaddle? Why do you assume everyone else wants to get into the airlines just because you do?
"...airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA ... Every pilot with a bit of sense of career drive, jobsecurity and a bit of ego cannot honestly say he is not interested flying the airlines"
I'm in GA. I passed the "difficult" tests to join the Royal Navy (you know, the ones that are harder than the RAF's). I want to stay in GA for now, possibly for my whole career.
The reason I am in GA is that I want flying experience that is different from the airlines. I absolutely love my job, and am only looking to go onto something else that I think will be as interesting, so it's GA or one of a small number of airlines that I know are good to work for, because I have many friends there. Most airlines I wouldn't touch. I have many friends in airlines who moan about their jobs, including one who used to do my job, and says that if he didn't have a £22,000 bond he'd want to come back.
Surely airline pilots have a reputation for unjustified and oversized egos, do they not?
If you have an ego that relates to reality, and any rational analysis of aviation then come and do my job. Few people would say that airline flying is harder than single-crew in an unpressurised twin on ad-hoc charters, sometimes into airports and even small airfields that you haven't heard of until an hour before the flight, briefing from Jeppesens while airborne. The fact that I can do this job strokes my ego just fine. Job security is fine, and career drive can wait. My experience as line and training captain in these circumstances has to help later when I want to shift to the left seat and then have a training role in whatever organisations I fly for afterwards.
Where did you pick up that complete load of old twaddle? Why do you assume everyone else wants to get into the airlines just because you do?
"...airline flying is not for you because you are not able to qualify and pass their difficult tests. That' s why you are in GA ... Every pilot with a bit of sense of career drive, jobsecurity and a bit of ego cannot honestly say he is not interested flying the airlines"
I'm in GA. I passed the "difficult" tests to join the Royal Navy (you know, the ones that are harder than the RAF's). I want to stay in GA for now, possibly for my whole career.
The reason I am in GA is that I want flying experience that is different from the airlines. I absolutely love my job, and am only looking to go onto something else that I think will be as interesting, so it's GA or one of a small number of airlines that I know are good to work for, because I have many friends there. Most airlines I wouldn't touch. I have many friends in airlines who moan about their jobs, including one who used to do my job, and says that if he didn't have a £22,000 bond he'd want to come back.
Surely airline pilots have a reputation for unjustified and oversized egos, do they not?
If you have an ego that relates to reality, and any rational analysis of aviation then come and do my job. Few people would say that airline flying is harder than single-crew in an unpressurised twin on ad-hoc charters, sometimes into airports and even small airfields that you haven't heard of until an hour before the flight, briefing from Jeppesens while airborne. The fact that I can do this job strokes my ego just fine. Job security is fine, and career drive can wait. My experience as line and training captain in these circumstances has to help later when I want to shift to the left seat and then have a training role in whatever organisations I fly for afterwards.
Join Date: Aug 2006
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(Space Pig) :"we are talking about Netjets. Yes, we bring the bad stuff out and it stinks, but the opposite thing to do is stick your head in the sand and pretend if nothing is happening, or worse , wait until it happens."
I think this is the issue here, which is getting snowed under by discussions comparing airlines with GA, both have excellent aviators, though airlines have more of a "safetyculture", that cannot be denied.
In many post I can read a few lines that mentions the "culture" in Netjets.Does this hold truth ? Do more people see it this way?
Is Netjets pushing people(W&R)?Bending the rules?Ignoring the MEL?
If this is so, shouldn't we discuss safety related issues of Netjets?Is is a safe company?
Is there really an accident waiting to happen?
Or should we start a new post here?
Where there is smoke there is fire?
I think this is the issue here, which is getting snowed under by discussions comparing airlines with GA, both have excellent aviators, though airlines have more of a "safetyculture", that cannot be denied.
In many post I can read a few lines that mentions the "culture" in Netjets.Does this hold truth ? Do more people see it this way?
Is Netjets pushing people(W&R)?Bending the rules?Ignoring the MEL?
If this is so, shouldn't we discuss safety related issues of Netjets?Is is a safe company?
Is there really an accident waiting to happen?
Or should we start a new post here?
Where there is smoke there is fire?