NetJets Ab Initio & Cadet issues
Join Date: Aug 2006
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so just to clarify, when my boss owned a netjets share some time ago, he was repeatedly told of the very high minimum qualifications that all pilots were suppied with. Are netjets now going to tell all of their owners that they are 'reducing the minimum requirements' to fly their aircraft and owners??
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote: This scheme makes me laugh.....
I regularly get emails from Netjets telling me I need 1500hrs.
Now they go to Oxford and intend hiring teenagers with 250hrs of which only 150hrs max is actually flying an aircraft - no more than 100hrs of which is solo time....i.e. them making decisions for themselves.....most of it following a highway in Arizona.
Why isn't it a level playing field? Its all or nothing ?
I agree with you completely, except this doesn't make me laugh any longer, it makes me cry! I spend my life dragging and cajoling some of these young people through their courses so they can jump the queue to the front of a jet, meanwhile the very experienced and talented pilots training them get responses that you mention above - or no responses at all.
I regularly get emails from Netjets telling me I need 1500hrs.
Now they go to Oxford and intend hiring teenagers with 250hrs of which only 150hrs max is actually flying an aircraft - no more than 100hrs of which is solo time....i.e. them making decisions for themselves.....most of it following a highway in Arizona.
Why isn't it a level playing field? Its all or nothing ?
I agree with you completely, except this doesn't make me laugh any longer, it makes me cry! I spend my life dragging and cajoling some of these young people through their courses so they can jump the queue to the front of a jet, meanwhile the very experienced and talented pilots training them get responses that you mention above - or no responses at all.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Hey pella, you bin knowing mah numba por long time.
You gottim smoke?
Wan some lady in a boat? Betta dan dat grange ****e.
You gottim smoke?
Wan some lady in a boat? Betta dan dat grange ****e.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ITALY
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flyinginthesun I'm completely agree with you nowadays each son of a rich father can pay for the type rating with 200hrs and jump the queue!!!
and then they tell you sorry you are below our requirements...
and then they tell you sorry you are below our requirements...
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I wouldn't throw all the teddies out of the cot just yet.
Fight fang and claw to get a job. (yes I am familiar with how hard it is). Whether it be instructing (and keeping your eye in on the bizjet that parks up a hangar or two nearby), getting a t'prop job (something nice, like an ATR or Dash 8 or failing that, a Shorts 360) or shifting to Africa for a year. Get some hours or so and it won't be long until you have the hours for a direct entry pilot.
Have a plan and do every thing you can to make it happen. Ideally, the more experience you have on the type of job Netjets does then the better your chances will be. Also, you'll probably look pretty good for other airlines too.
There's a good mix of experience in Netjets, some are ex airline, some ex military, ex night freight, others GA. (Many a combination of the above)
Fight fang and claw to get a job. (yes I am familiar with how hard it is). Whether it be instructing (and keeping your eye in on the bizjet that parks up a hangar or two nearby), getting a t'prop job (something nice, like an ATR or Dash 8 or failing that, a Shorts 360) or shifting to Africa for a year. Get some hours or so and it won't be long until you have the hours for a direct entry pilot.
Have a plan and do every thing you can to make it happen. Ideally, the more experience you have on the type of job Netjets does then the better your chances will be. Also, you'll probably look pretty good for other airlines too.
There's a good mix of experience in Netjets, some are ex airline, some ex military, ex night freight, others GA. (Many a combination of the above)
Join Date: Jul 2000
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I am sorry that you feel that there is an unfairness to this proposal, but it is standard practice with cadet schemes vs DEP schemes. If a company is going to get Cadets trained the way they want, following their training progress carefully, with lots of intermediate checks and markers, then they will accept low hours. But if somebody who they have no idea of the quality of their training comes along (DEP), then NetJets, (and any other company running the same sort of scheme) has to set a 'standard'. The minimum of which is 1500 Hrs and a frozen ATPL. -or whatever, generally dictated by insurances, but I am not sure of the fine details.
Before you jump on me, I had to work my way through to where I am now. No 'rich father', as somebody said.
Nobody said aviation owed us anything.
However, if and when you do have the 1500 hrs and if you still want a job with NJE, I am sure that they would be pleased to have you, and you would do as well as anyone else. You would after all have 1500 hrs more than the cadets and would therefore be that far ahead when it came to Upgrades and Long Haul fleets.
Before you jump on me, I had to work my way through to where I am now. No 'rich father', as somebody said.
Nobody said aviation owed us anything.
However, if and when you do have the 1500 hrs and if you still want a job with NJE, I am sure that they would be pleased to have you, and you would do as well as anyone else. You would after all have 1500 hrs more than the cadets and would therefore be that far ahead when it came to Upgrades and Long Haul fleets.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I'm not a NetJets pilot, not even in turbines, but being in GA I have a lot of the same pressures they suffer, and I chat with a lot of them who I meet at various handling agents. I can see NJ captains being rather overburdened to have such an inexperienced FO flying with them, pressured on the ground and in the air by having a lot less support.
We learn a lot in our first 1500 hours - I am there, and can apply to NJE so do not have any axe to grind. I just have seen the struggles of inexperienced pilots I have line trained in our business, where inexperienced is "over 700 hours with a minimum of 400 hours P1", not "180 hours plus a type rating, 80 hours P1, some of that SPIC".
We learn a lot in our first 1500 hours - I am there, and can apply to NJE so do not have any axe to grind. I just have seen the struggles of inexperienced pilots I have line trained in our business, where inexperienced is "over 700 hours with a minimum of 400 hours P1", not "180 hours plus a type rating, 80 hours P1, some of that SPIC".
Join Date: Mar 2001
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**quote**how does your theory apply to the people who train these 'cadets' who still can't get into Netjets because they don't have 1500hrs ?
Do you think because you might be training these people you are special?
Its simple...if you have 1500 hours you go for the direct entry, if you dont you go for the cadetship.
Would you also say to BA if you were training their cadets, 'hey I am training your cadets but I dont meet your direct entry requirements, but come on, give me a job?
'
Being their instructor doesnt mean anything, you teach people a skill. (dont get me wrong, I am sure you are good at it and I respect you for doing that job) but if you dont have 1500 hours you are not deemed by the employer to have the level of experience they are looking for.
To be honest, bombing around in a Warrior or Duchess doing steep turns, stalls, vfr cross countries, IFR training etc is not very similar to what actually happens in the world of commercial aviation, and thats why you need to have a starting point where they say, ok, we will look at you from this point and that point is 1500 hours.
Do you think because you might be training these people you are special?
Its simple...if you have 1500 hours you go for the direct entry, if you dont you go for the cadetship.
Would you also say to BA if you were training their cadets, 'hey I am training your cadets but I dont meet your direct entry requirements, but come on, give me a job?
'
Being their instructor doesnt mean anything, you teach people a skill. (dont get me wrong, I am sure you are good at it and I respect you for doing that job) but if you dont have 1500 hours you are not deemed by the employer to have the level of experience they are looking for.
To be honest, bombing around in a Warrior or Duchess doing steep turns, stalls, vfr cross countries, IFR training etc is not very similar to what actually happens in the world of commercial aviation, and thats why you need to have a starting point where they say, ok, we will look at you from this point and that point is 1500 hours.
Join Date: Dec 2006
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The main problem is the training!!! You can train cadet if you have proper training. Netjets can hardly train experienced pilots. Line trainers struggle to release the new hired. A few years ago, we already recruited ab initios...Sabena ab initios. They were peace of cake to release. Now line trainers all admit it is more and more demanding and challenging.
Netjets' Ab initios scheme is a shot in the foot!
Netjets' Ab initios scheme is a shot in the foot!
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Do you think because you might be training these people you are special?
Its simple...if you have 1500 hours you go for the direct entry, if you dont you go for the cadetship.
Being their instructor doesnt mean anything
but if you dont have 1500 hours you are not deemed by the employer to have the level of experience they are looking for.
To be honest, bombing around in a Warrior or Duchess doing steep turns, stalls, vfr cross countries, IFR training etc is not very similar to what actually happens in the world of commercial aviation, and thats why you need to have a starting point where they say, ok, we will look at you from this point and that point is 1500 hours.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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quote
No.....but there are more skills and qualities in the guy who can fly, navigate and teach than simply the one who has just passed his course ?
But you dont have 1500 hours!
quote
What about 800hrs ? Direct entry or cadetship
Is 800 hours 1500?
quote
So why is a 200hr pilot straight from OAT any different ? There is a big difference between 200hrs and 1500hrs. And nearly 100hrs is FNPT2 time as well.
Because they are offering a CADETSHIP which means from no experience to low experience.
quote
So why one rule for one and one for the other ?
Yes there are two methods to join most 'airlines'.
1. Direct entry, which requires 1500 hours in NJE case.
2. The cadet programme
I am not saying your job as a FI is bad, I am just confused as to why you think as their FI you should be considered.
You are doing a very worthwhile job as a FI, we all had to learn to fly from someone, but it is not the fault of the cadets that you dont meet the minimum requirements for a direct entry pilot.
I would like to fly for Virgin, but since I dont meet their requirements I cant!
No.....but there are more skills and qualities in the guy who can fly, navigate and teach than simply the one who has just passed his course ?
But you dont have 1500 hours!
quote
What about 800hrs ? Direct entry or cadetship
Is 800 hours 1500?
quote
So why is a 200hr pilot straight from OAT any different ? There is a big difference between 200hrs and 1500hrs. And nearly 100hrs is FNPT2 time as well.
Because they are offering a CADETSHIP which means from no experience to low experience.
quote
So why one rule for one and one for the other ?
Yes there are two methods to join most 'airlines'.
1. Direct entry, which requires 1500 hours in NJE case.
2. The cadet programme
I am not saying your job as a FI is bad, I am just confused as to why you think as their FI you should be considered.
You are doing a very worthwhile job as a FI, we all had to learn to fly from someone, but it is not the fault of the cadets that you dont meet the minimum requirements for a direct entry pilot.
I would like to fly for Virgin, but since I dont meet their requirements I cant!
Join Date: Nov 2006
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fact of the matter is that even the brightest, sharpest chap from oxford,still is what he is, a 250 hour pilot.
Airlines know that and put a safety pilot on the jumpseat or let him self be on the jumpseat for a considerable time.
Netjets can do neither.
That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.
The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)
I doubt it.
So this is how this oxford idea will end up sooner or later in a drama.
I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................
Airlines know that and put a safety pilot on the jumpseat or let him self be on the jumpseat for a considerable time.
Netjets can do neither.
That basically means that when the captain get's a hart attack when he realized he dived into the wrong valley in search of samedan, the novice aviator will have the task to get everybody out of there.
The problem is that he has not been there before (or is Netjets like any airline going to send people to the sim for every cat b and c airport.)
I doubt it.
So this is how this oxford idea will end up sooner or later in a drama.
I am sure customers know this and are more than happy to continue to spend their millions with their beloved family aboard................
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Some real embittered people posting here!! If certain people took the time to THINK rather than winding themselves up into a hysterical knee-jerk response, then maybe they'd come to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, NetJets' would have thought through this issue of training. In my experience of working at an airline new pilot's, a lot of whom are straight out of flight school, are safety released after 8 sectors of flying, some after 12. Ever heard of airlines doing base or circuit training without passengers on board? Anyone think NetJets' might be doing the same with their new recruits before releasing them on the "unsuspecting" passenger, thus allowing a safety pilot to be present.
*Waits for the inevitable, irrational "novice-pilot can't fly like I can" counterargument*
*Waits for the inevitable, irrational "novice-pilot can't fly like I can" counterargument*
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Airlines know that and put a safety pilot on the jumpseat or let him self be on the jumpseat for a considerable time.
Netjets can do neither.
Netjets can do neither.
