C 525 multi pilot operation
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C 525 multi pilot operation
I am currently flying a C 525 (CJ2) single pilot as the plane is not on our AOC.
Apparently our civil aviation authority (Switzerland) does not want our plane to be flown as a multi pilot plane once he is comercial (ie: only one pilot can log the hours, no multi pilot entry in the logbook and no multi pilot endorsment in our licence).
1- How are thoses planes flown in other JAA country?
2- How can they expect us to find co-pilot if they cannot log their flights?
Apparently our civil aviation authority (Switzerland) does not want our plane to be flown as a multi pilot plane once he is comercial (ie: only one pilot can log the hours, no multi pilot entry in the logbook and no multi pilot endorsment in our licence).
1- How are thoses planes flown in other JAA country?
2- How can they expect us to find co-pilot if they cannot log their flights?
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Germany:
You can log the hours as rated copilot, but they donīt count against the 500hrs MPA requirement to unfreeze the ATP.
We had the same discussion with the german authority, they say it is a SPA aeroplane, but once you operate it commercially you need to have a copilot. You need to have SOP ,CRM and whatnot, but its NOT multipilot operation. I have to admit, there are not many switches on the right side of the CJ/CJ2, but still more than on a C500, which is slower and lighter AND gives you MPA hours.
Ask them if one can have a COP rating in the licence, if so, one MUST be allowed to log the hours. Ask them also if you need to do 1.968 in order to operate from the right hand seat. If the answers are yes and still a COP wouldnīt be allowed to log the hours, sue them!
You can log the hours as rated copilot, but they donīt count against the 500hrs MPA requirement to unfreeze the ATP.
We had the same discussion with the german authority, they say it is a SPA aeroplane, but once you operate it commercially you need to have a copilot. You need to have SOP ,CRM and whatnot, but its NOT multipilot operation. I have to admit, there are not many switches on the right side of the CJ/CJ2, but still more than on a C500, which is slower and lighter AND gives you MPA hours.
Ask them if one can have a COP rating in the licence, if so, one MUST be allowed to log the hours. Ask them also if you need to do 1.968 in order to operate from the right hand seat. If the answers are yes and still a COP wouldnīt be allowed to log the hours, sue them!
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In the UK, if it is being flown commercially then under JAR-OPS two pilots are required and the f/o must be fully type rated, OPC'ed etc. (S)he can then log the hours as P2 towards all the licencing requirements.
On a separate note, even if it is being flown privately so that only one pilot is required the f/o should log the time. The fact that the CAA will not count this towards further licences is a red herring for two reasons.
First you are legally required to log all time spent as flight crew; the ANO does not say only required flight crew - if you acted as P2 then you must log it.
Second, and probably more importantly in the long run, when you come to apply for future jobs the experience can be the decider that gets you the job ahead of the other guy. It is also accepted as jet/multi crew hours by insurance companies, again getting you that vital job.
Of course, authorities of any nationality only parrot the mantra about not counting hours for licence issue
On a separate note, even if it is being flown privately so that only one pilot is required the f/o should log the time. The fact that the CAA will not count this towards further licences is a red herring for two reasons.
First you are legally required to log all time spent as flight crew; the ANO does not say only required flight crew - if you acted as P2 then you must log it.
Second, and probably more importantly in the long run, when you come to apply for future jobs the experience can be the decider that gets you the job ahead of the other guy. It is also accepted as jet/multi crew hours by insurance companies, again getting you that vital job.
Of course, authorities of any nationality only parrot the mantra about not counting hours for licence issue
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Iīm not sure about what was your question is, but flying under JAROPS means you are operating commercially.
Usually the aircraft on a AOC can be operated privately, but then before being commercial again, it would have to go through a maintenance check. Theoratically.
I know that some authorities grandfather some companies that can fly privately and commercially without doing that check...
In Europes Kuwait, you just put a P for private in the dutytimes-field of the techlog and thats it.
Usually the aircraft on a AOC can be operated privately, but then before being commercial again, it would have to go through a maintenance check. Theoratically.
I know that some authorities grandfather some companies that can fly privately and commercially without doing that check...
In Europes Kuwait, you just put a P for private in the dutytimes-field of the techlog and thats it.
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You can have a plane on the AOC and be able to fly privatly as long as you are not receiving any money for the flight.
Easy to go around that.
I just receive confirmation from the FOCA, (Swiss CAA), to be flown Commercialy, the CJ's crew will have to have the multi pilot rating (pic or right seat). But the hours flown will not count for the 500 hours needed for the ATP.
Easy to go around that.
I just receive confirmation from the FOCA, (Swiss CAA), to be flown Commercialy, the CJ's crew will have to have the multi pilot rating (pic or right seat). But the hours flown will not count for the 500 hours needed for the ATP.
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Salut FlyingMasai
Am exactly in the situation you describe ... Am just about to move from a CJ1 left seat to a CJ2 Right seat ... And nobody is sure I'll receive credit for those F/O hours ... Stupide regulations
Am exactly in the situation you describe ... Am just about to move from a CJ1 left seat to a CJ2 Right seat ... And nobody is sure I'll receive credit for those F/O hours ... Stupide regulations
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Funny thread
Wow an honest pilot trying to figure out to honestly log hours.
How do two pilots in a recip or turboprop log hours...hmmm
Your opening up a can of worms because all the kids these days that don't get a check out, hop right seat in that corporate jet, or tprop, or twin, make for some interesting conversation at the diner when you hear they are now flying a jet....
Where did they log thier hours? What are they telling the insurance companies?
hmmmmm
How do two pilots in a recip or turboprop log hours...hmmm
Your opening up a can of worms because all the kids these days that don't get a check out, hop right seat in that corporate jet, or tprop, or twin, make for some interesting conversation at the diner when you hear they are now flying a jet....
Where did they log thier hours? What are they telling the insurance companies?
hmmmmm
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Total can of worms:>
The logging of hours when operating a non two crew certified aircraft, by a second crew member is and always has been a can of worms.
Many years ago, I was involved in a PA31 operation, which is basically a sinlgle pilot aircraft. We had two full crew stations, and the private owner wanted two crew, but was not too concerned as to the licence status of the second crew member.
The licences were: P1 had a CAA ATPL, and typed. The right had a PPL, and IMC rating, with twin rating.
The P1 was also conducting AOC flights other than this operation, on different types.
The Co Pilot was allowed to LOG 100%, IF they were in sole manipluation of the control, in "command" of the flight, and no other persons on board.
The approval for this came from the CAA, due to the situation that as a single crew aircraft, the P1 was not a required crew member provided the P2 operated within the restrictions of ther licence.
Thus I as the P1, could be on board the PA31, sitting in a crew station, all day, (but not influencing the conduct of the flight), and then "become" a pilot and operate an AOC flight...
Remember the Pilots Assistant....
SilverS
Many years ago, I was involved in a PA31 operation, which is basically a sinlgle pilot aircraft. We had two full crew stations, and the private owner wanted two crew, but was not too concerned as to the licence status of the second crew member.
The licences were: P1 had a CAA ATPL, and typed. The right had a PPL, and IMC rating, with twin rating.
The P1 was also conducting AOC flights other than this operation, on different types.
The Co Pilot was allowed to LOG 100%, IF they were in sole manipluation of the control, in "command" of the flight, and no other persons on board.
The approval for this came from the CAA, due to the situation that as a single crew aircraft, the P1 was not a required crew member provided the P2 operated within the restrictions of ther licence.
Thus I as the P1, could be on board the PA31, sitting in a crew station, all day, (but not influencing the conduct of the flight), and then "become" a pilot and operate an AOC flight...
Remember the Pilots Assistant....
SilverS
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In Uk can log the hours towards 500hrs MPA time as long as the flight is conducted according to an AOC. For UK all turbojet AOC operations are mandoratory 2 crew(bothy type rated). You will however need a type rating above the weight cat to activate your ATPL.
Captain logs PIC and FO P1(u/s) or P2 depending on who is HP or NHP. Most of the authorites seem to be in a mess over light turbo jets. There is also confusion over CRE/TRE for this type. I have been told that EASA is going to sort out the confusion.
Captain logs PIC and FO P1(u/s) or P2 depending on who is HP or NHP. Most of the authorites seem to be in a mess over light turbo jets. There is also confusion over CRE/TRE for this type. I have been told that EASA is going to sort out the confusion.
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Or do you mean that in Switzerland you can either fly SP operation or MP, but not both? (so for example you wouldn't be able to fly a JAR-OPS commercial flight with a copilot and then return the plane on a private flight on your own?)
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It depends of your authority: In Switzerland it is two seperate ratings, It required two seperate check for renewal.
In France the multi rating does not exist for the CJ.
In France the multi rating does not exist for the CJ.
