NetJets Europe- the "get fired without cause" myth
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NetJets Europe- the "get fired without cause" myth
NetJets is a great company to work for. Great destinations, great Flight and Cabin Crew. For customers it is the simply best choice. Your Personal Airline.
But is it the best choice for the employees at the sharp end- the flight and cabin crew?
NJE contracts state that the employer may terminate the contract without cause.
This is a peculiar clause- people are afraid of speaking up as they might fall under this peculiar clause and get fired without cause.
Joining a Union or a Crew Council could be interpreted by the majority of NJE pilots as a high risk undertaking- you join the Union or the Crew Council you get fired.
NJE has in the past imposed changes to contract.
NJE has and does not negotiate changes to contract with the employees- as the peculiar clause and peculiar culture has prevented any initiative to create a Flight and Cabin crew representation body.
At NJE there are 3 different contracts- UK, ISLE of MAN, PORTUGAL.
According to information provided by APPLA the Portugese Pilots Association the following applies:
NJE operates Portugese registered aircraft under a portugese AOC.
No matter what contract NJE pilots are working under, and what nationalty they have, they have the right to be judged under Portugese Labour Law.
Firing of an employee without cause is not legal under Portugese Labour Law. The process of establishing a just cause "justa causa" has to be followed under Portuges law.
So forget the peculiar clause.
Joining a Union or making any effort to create Flight and Cabin Crew representation can not get you fired.
Union or Crew Council negotiators are able to negotiate stable long term career opportunites for NJE Flight and Cabin crew. Stable, long term career opportunites will attract the best Flight and Cabin Crew.
As it is right now, NJE imposes changes to contract without negotation as there is no Flight and Cabin Crew representation.
Why not join IPA or the Portugese Union- united we have a voice!
With improved T&C's the company would be even greater to work for.
The US NetJets Pilots have sucessfully improved their T&C's.On the IBT website you can read:
The International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 1108 is dedicated to professional union representation for professional aviators. Our mission is to remove pilot job security, wages, benefits, and working conditions from the competitive consumer market by advocating a “safety first” work environment and establishing professional collective bargaining agreement standards across the industry. Strong Union representation neutralizes management pressures that focus on profits at the expense of safety. Professional career opportunities attract the best pilots, and only professional collective bargaining agreements provide stable professional career opportunities.
But is it the best choice for the employees at the sharp end- the flight and cabin crew?
NJE contracts state that the employer may terminate the contract without cause.
This is a peculiar clause- people are afraid of speaking up as they might fall under this peculiar clause and get fired without cause.
Joining a Union or a Crew Council could be interpreted by the majority of NJE pilots as a high risk undertaking- you join the Union or the Crew Council you get fired.
NJE has in the past imposed changes to contract.
NJE has and does not negotiate changes to contract with the employees- as the peculiar clause and peculiar culture has prevented any initiative to create a Flight and Cabin crew representation body.
At NJE there are 3 different contracts- UK, ISLE of MAN, PORTUGAL.
According to information provided by APPLA the Portugese Pilots Association the following applies:
NJE operates Portugese registered aircraft under a portugese AOC.
No matter what contract NJE pilots are working under, and what nationalty they have, they have the right to be judged under Portugese Labour Law.
Firing of an employee without cause is not legal under Portugese Labour Law. The process of establishing a just cause "justa causa" has to be followed under Portuges law.
So forget the peculiar clause.
Joining a Union or making any effort to create Flight and Cabin Crew representation can not get you fired.
Union or Crew Council negotiators are able to negotiate stable long term career opportunites for NJE Flight and Cabin crew. Stable, long term career opportunites will attract the best Flight and Cabin Crew.
As it is right now, NJE imposes changes to contract without negotation as there is no Flight and Cabin Crew representation.
Why not join IPA or the Portugese Union- united we have a voice!
With improved T&C's the company would be even greater to work for.
The US NetJets Pilots have sucessfully improved their T&C's.On the IBT website you can read:
The International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 1108 is dedicated to professional union representation for professional aviators. Our mission is to remove pilot job security, wages, benefits, and working conditions from the competitive consumer market by advocating a “safety first” work environment and establishing professional collective bargaining agreement standards across the industry. Strong Union representation neutralizes management pressures that focus on profits at the expense of safety. Professional career opportunities attract the best pilots, and only professional collective bargaining agreements provide stable professional career opportunities.
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This needs to be publicised and NJE employees made aware that they cannot be fired without cause.
The problem is we have all seen it done. Recently a pilot was fired 'without cause'. He was told that if he signed an agreement that he would keep silent the company would pay his salary for three months in monthly instalments. If he spoke out they would immediately stop paying him.
This is the sort of treatment to be expected from NJE management. This is fact. It has happened.
Do you really want to work under such a regime?
The problem is we have all seen it done. Recently a pilot was fired 'without cause'. He was told that if he signed an agreement that he would keep silent the company would pay his salary for three months in monthly instalments. If he spoke out they would immediately stop paying him.
This is the sort of treatment to be expected from NJE management. This is fact. It has happened.
Do you really want to work under such a regime?
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... and pay taxes in Portugal. 
Tax % Tax Base (Euro)
10.5% up to 4,351
13% 4,351-6581
23.5% 6,581-16,317
34% 16,317-37,528
36.5%% 37,528-54,388
40% 54,388 and over
Source: http://www.worldwide-tax.com/portugal/portugal_tax.asp
Tax % Tax Base (Euro)
10.5% up to 4,351
13% 4,351-6581
23.5% 6,581-16,317
34% 16,317-37,528
36.5%% 37,528-54,388
40% 54,388 and over
Source: http://www.worldwide-tax.com/portugal/portugal_tax.asp
Last edited by erikv; 2nd Sep 2006 at 20:02. Reason: source added
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it is not a myth
I was fired by NJE without any cause whatsoever. No reason, just had a phone call and fired, end of story !
Myth ? Rubbish !
The only recourse, after some weeks of employing a Portuguese Lawyer, under local legislation, was re-instatement ! You really want that after being fired without cause !
The reality is somewhat different to the logical picture you paint.
I suspect I am one of many.
Myth ? Rubbish !
The only recourse, after some weeks of employing a Portuguese Lawyer, under local legislation, was re-instatement ! You really want that after being fired without cause !
The reality is somewhat different to the logical picture you paint.
I suspect I am one of many.
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Man...if only NJE crews had problems...
Believe me, when I say that the rest of the boys and gals here at HQ suffer from the same as you and we see everyday how much we and you are pushed.
"He" has gone, but the others and their mentality is still very present...and I see no will to change whatsoever. Lot´s of interests prevail...lot´s of lobbies...
I come to the conclusion that the cancer was not him...at least he made things for everyone to see...
Talk to you on the phone...
Believe me, when I say that the rest of the boys and gals here at HQ suffer from the same as you and we see everyday how much we and you are pushed.
"He" has gone, but the others and their mentality is still very present...and I see no will to change whatsoever. Lot´s of interests prevail...lot´s of lobbies...
I come to the conclusion that the cancer was not him...at least he made things for everyone to see...
Talk to you on the phone...
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City Hopper: if you are interested check out, J1e2t3b4l5a6s6t8e9r9s.com - ommit numbers, for some reason the name is blocked- let the office force join the discussion...
Usedtoworkfornje: that's bad, but you got re-instated which proves the point, they can't get away with it.
More examples anybody?
Usedtoworkfornje: that's bad, but you got re-instated which proves the point, they can't get away with it.
More examples anybody?
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The only recourse, after some weeks of employing a Portuguese Lawyer, under local legislation, was re-instatement ! You really want that after being fired without cause !
The reality is somewhat different to the logical picture you paint.
I suspect I am one of many.
The reality is somewhat different to the logical picture you paint.
I suspect I am one of many.
The Paris 2 were fired after the usual NJE kangaroo court. They were called in to 'discuss' the matter. Next thing they knew they were dismissed. That's ok though, they were given an appeal. How long ago? Almost a month, it was strung out just like the original 'investigation' (hah!! That was a laugh, Inspector Clouseau could have done better) so that it will be almost three months after the event before they are forced to make a decision and those guys have jobs elsewhere.
In the meantime the company scramble around trying to get evidence that they didn't have at the beginning. Asking hotel staff who sat where and said what THREE MONTHS LATER. Are they going to admit they don't know or submitted their 'reports' to cover their own misdemeanours? Of course not.
However it is in principle NJE continue to fire people on a whim. They then abuse the system knowing they will never have to fully account for their actions.
Looong Haul, Scroll Lock and CL300. Nothing to say gentlemen?
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I'm still thinking that those stories should stay within company. However, there is no fire with no smoke.
What ever happened, what ever went wrong with whoever, the only thing I can say is that there is too many people drinking something else than soda or water during tour.
No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Some countries have a drinking habit, England is among them, how many beers at the bar at 1900 Lcl ? Come on ! It is not only NJE, it is all companies.
The attitude was wrong from those crews, I believe the company was fair for this event, and other ones. People had refuse rehab from the company, some other are denying what really happened.
Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
If you do not want to get into trouble steer away and read the FCPM, it says it all, just follow it, if you do not like it.... just leave !
Stay in SAM, but be cautious princess are meant to become queens....What if the prince does not make it to the next level ?
What ever happened, what ever went wrong with whoever, the only thing I can say is that there is too many people drinking something else than soda or water during tour.
No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Some countries have a drinking habit, England is among them, how many beers at the bar at 1900 Lcl ? Come on ! It is not only NJE, it is all companies.
The attitude was wrong from those crews, I believe the company was fair for this event, and other ones. People had refuse rehab from the company, some other are denying what really happened.
Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
If you do not want to get into trouble steer away and read the FCPM, it says it all, just follow it, if you do not like it.... just leave !
Stay in SAM, but be cautious princess are meant to become queens....What if the prince does not make it to the next level ?
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CL300, you are a scary fella!
1#there is no fire with no smoke.
Now that is a load of crap!
Just accuse someone and it must be true!!
2#No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Who are you to tell someone else what he/she should do in his off time?
3#Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
Just read this again, EVEN IF ILLEGAL it is still an ACCEPTABLE CASE!
1#there is no fire with no smoke.
Now that is a load of crap!
Just accuse someone and it must be true!!
2#No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Who are you to tell someone else what he/she should do in his off time?
3#Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
Just read this again, EVEN IF ILLEGAL it is still an ACCEPTABLE CASE!
The attitude was wrong from those crews, I believe the company was fair for this event, and other ones.
I don't understand you, CL300. I am very understanding for the company's needs, but there are things that are going terribly wrong. You will see yourself on the day that YOU will be in the focus of wild accusations. Wasn't it you flying too low on the approach? Fired!Join Date: Jan 2004
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CL300, you are a scary fella!
1#there is no fire with no smoke.
Now that is a load of crap!
Just accuse someone and it must be true!!
2#No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Who are you to tell someone else what he/she should do in his off time?
3#Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
Just read this again, EVEN IF ILLEGAL it is still an ACCEPTABLE CASE!
1#there is no fire with no smoke.
Now that is a load of crap!
Just accuse someone and it must be true!!
2#No matter you are in rest, duty or standby the alcohol consumption should be refrened or even banned during those 6 days.
Who are you to tell someone else what he/she should do in his off time?
3#Again even if illegal in the form, it is still an acceptable case for the company.
Just read this again, EVEN IF ILLEGAL it is still an ACCEPTABLE CASE!
My dear Colleague, you cannot be OFF during your 6 days you can be either ON, STDBY or REST. During your days OFF you do whatever, for the rest read the manual...
ILLEGAL in FORM not in FACTS...
Crews are in breach of the FCPM when they drink any alcohol while on tour, period, again read the manual...
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The crew paid a bottle of wine for a friend, they did not drink it. So, their attitude was wrong I don't understand you, CL300. I am very understanding for the company's needs, but there are things that are going terribly wrong. You will see yourself on the day that YOU will be in the focus of wild accusations. Wasn't it you flying too low on the approach? Fired!
I don't understand you, CL300. I am very understanding for the company's needs, but there are things that are going terribly wrong. You will see yourself on the day that YOU will be in the focus of wild accusations. Wasn't it you flying too low on the approach? Fired!With remote operations that we are facing you need to use a lot of you superpower to make it happen but it does work with time.
For flying too low, does not help to reduce landing distance , or a better landing on top of it it is illegal in a lot of places so don't do it, if you do you have to be ready to face the consequences.
Buying or selling wine when the rules are not the one you are used to, may be you should think twice.. no ? For myself it is dead simple, not a drop of alcohol whilst on tour for 25 years....
NETJETS is not a vacation club, you are there to work...ON, REST, STDBY, nothing else.....
Come, on, we all know that 99% of pilots do have a drink in the evening. As a consequence the company needs to fire or discipline everyone. If you want to fly alone, then go for those rules. Having fun is different...
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Firstly there is no alcohol policy in the company that stops one from purchasing; there is certainly not one that stops you being around those that are having a drink.
If there were we would not be able to fly any of our passengers as we would be guilty as we are in the same aircraft as them enjoying a drink.
One of the reasons for dismissal in the company’s letters was that people were with others consuming wine that lead the company to believe that in that case all were.
Ever been the nominated driver, gone to a pub and stood the round and purchased a beer for those who you were driving home,(whilst not drinking your self as the driver of the evening?) according to the company’s take on this if you do this you are guilty of a drink drive charge. Can you hear that in a court of law? NO, I thought not.
ON REST OR STBY? Never heard such a load of twaddle, in you are resting the time is yours.
Read your books again and read the 8 hour and the recommended but no policy on 12 hours rules and then gain a life.
Just a thought, both DM(used to) and CR are happy to meet crew down route for a beer and a chat, better get on and sack the whole company!
Watch this space, the company I believe has a fight on its hands and those accused are happy to get blood on there hands to prove that it was not as they claim it was.
If there were we would not be able to fly any of our passengers as we would be guilty as we are in the same aircraft as them enjoying a drink.
One of the reasons for dismissal in the company’s letters was that people were with others consuming wine that lead the company to believe that in that case all were.
Ever been the nominated driver, gone to a pub and stood the round and purchased a beer for those who you were driving home,(whilst not drinking your self as the driver of the evening?) according to the company’s take on this if you do this you are guilty of a drink drive charge. Can you hear that in a court of law? NO, I thought not.
ON REST OR STBY? Never heard such a load of twaddle, in you are resting the time is yours.
Read your books again and read the 8 hour and the recommended but no policy on 12 hours rules and then gain a life.
Just a thought, both DM(used to) and CR are happy to meet crew down route for a beer and a chat, better get on and sack the whole company!
Watch this space, the company I believe has a fight on its hands and those accused are happy to get blood on there hands to prove that it was not as they claim it was.
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Does this mean that when you are on tour during your rest period you are not allowed to consume alcohol. what if you finished at your flight at 1600 and were briefed for the next day to take off at 2345 briefed to fly until say 0900. does this mean you cant have a beer or 2. standby after 11 hours - bring it on! work that one out..... 
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Does this mean that when you are on tour during your rest period you are not allowed to consume alcohol. what if you finished at your flight at 1600 and were briefed for the next day to take off at 2345 briefed to fly until say 0900. does this mean you cant have a beer or 2. standby after 11 hours - bring it on! work that one out.....
Remember, for the company you have only 3 colours when ON duty those are Flying, STDBY, or ZZZZZZ... no OFF... OFF is after Day 6 or before day 1..
Sine you cannot be OFF during your "tour of DUTY", the answer is obvious no ?
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ON REST OR STBY? Never heard such a load of twaddle, in you are resting the time is yours. Just a thought, both DM(used to) and CR are happy to meet crew down route for a beer and a chat, better get on and sack the whole company!
Watch this space, the company I believe has a fight on its hands and those accused are happy to get blood on there hands to prove that it was not as they claim it was.
Watch this space, the company I believe has a fight on its hands and those accused are happy to get blood on there hands to prove that it was not as they claim it was.
If somebody tell you to hang yourself are you going to follow ?
You can meet someone at the bar , chat and have a diet cola no ?
People involved are grown ups and can sort themselves out I think.
EGTH was a nice place, good memories from this place.
