Fire Fighting P3 down.

[forget]

The National Transportation Safety Board has dispatched a
team to begin an investigation into the crash of a
firefighting aircraft in California that killed all three
crewmembers aboard.

At approximately 6:50 p.m., PDT, Wednesday, April 20,
a Lockheed P-3B air tanker, N926AU, owned and operated by
the Aero Union Corporation of Chico, California, crashed
immediately following a fire retardant training drop near
Chico. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed.

According to the company, the accident flight was the
seventh flight of the day for that aircraft. The purpose of
the flights was to conduct qualification checks for pilots
who were scheduled to conduct firefighting operations during
the upcoming fire season. The aircraft was manufactured in
1966 and was formerly operated by the United States Navy.
It was powered by four Allison T56A11 turboprop engines.

[ORAC]

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -

.......Aero Union, the California company that owns the plane, identified the three aboard as pilots Brian Bruns, Paul Cockrell and Tom Lynch......

There were no distress calls from the experienced crew, said Terry Unsworth, Aero Union's chief executive. "We have no idea what happened,'' Unsworth said......

[Sensible Garage]

Tanker #26 RIP

poor chaps

20apr05 N926AU P-3B 5171 Aero Union ex 152731 Make/Model: P3 Description: P-3 Orion (L-285) Date: 04/20/2005 Time: 0200 Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Destroyed LOCATION City: CHICO State: CA Country: US ACFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES IN AN OPEN AREA 12M NORTH OF CHICO, CA. THE ACFT WAS DESTROYED BY FIRE AND THE THREE POB SUFFERED FATAL INJURIES. CHICO, CA

Three crew members of an Aero Union air tanker are believed dead after their plane crashed Wednesday evening in a remote area of Tehama County during a training mission.

A Lassen National Forest spokeswoman confirmed there were three aboard the air tanker, which was on a training mission in the Brushy Mountain area of the Ishi Wilderness.

Assistant Public Affairs Officer Leona Rodreick said there "is no confirmation of survivors."

Aero Union President Terry Unsworth told the Enterprise-Record Wednesday night the plane had crashed.

"We believe the aircraft is a total loss," Unsworth said.

Search and rescue units were trying to reach the aircraft, Unsworth said, but declined to say more other than to confirm an investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board will follow.

California Highway Patrol officials confirmed the plane was destroyed, according to Janet Marshall, information officer for Butte County Fire/CDF. Marshall said her agency had begun getting calls from Cohasset residents who reported seeing a fireball in the sky before 7 p.m.

Lassen National Forest's Rodreick said there were no roads near the mountainous crash site and that search and rescue units were making their way to it. A helipad had been set up a few miles away, she said, and a two-acre fire caused by the crash was burning but not expected to spread.

"The information is sketchy at this time," she said around 10:30 p.m. Wednesday.

Rodreick said the reason behind the crash was unknown, but noted it was a training mission.

The crash could have far-reaching implications for the nation's firefighting force, which last year was grounded after the federal government canceled contracts over safety concerns of the aging aircraft.

Chico-based Aero Union was the first of the nation's air tanker companies to have its U.S. Forest Service contracts reinstated last year after its eight P-3s cleared safety evaluations.

One of Aero Union's divisions converts military aircraft into retardant- or water-carrying aircraft, leasing them for U.S. government use and selling them to foreign governments as well.

This year, Aero Union already had aircraft in the air with current Forest Service contracts, working in Arkansas and Kentucky.

Aero Union expected all of its eight P-3s to be leased by the Forest Service this fire season, and was concluding pilot training missions this week, Unsworth told the E-R last week.

[itchybum]

**Speculation**

A RAAF P-3 ditched following a leading edge separation some years back. They pulled up aggressively and the leading edge section was removed from the wing resulting in loss of lift and tremendous increase in drag.

Just wondering if that might be a similar factor here, after the retardant dump...

**End of Speculation**


May the three crew RIP.

[southender]

It's always sad to read a report of an aircraft crash with loss of life.

However, I understand that the piston engined tankers were withdrawn last year on safety grounds and now we have an accident involving a turbine powered aircraft.

I wonder if that was a somewhat hasty decision as many of the DC4's, DC6's etc appeared to be well maintained and good for a few more years yet.

Will this crash give the big radials another chance.

I hope so.

Southender

[Cyclic Hotline]

The answer is an almost certain NO, based on this years current plan. Last year a number of DC-6's and 7's were contracted by State agencies, although they were forbidden from drops on any Federal land.

The USFS does not believe they can accurately assess the airworthiness of the older piston aircraft at this time, nor are they likely to invest the (taxpayer) money into the programme to determine it. There is a lot of background information on this site.

Don't forget that two C-130A's were lost before this most recent turboprop accident. As the USFS had only just issued the P-3 contract this week, you can imagine that they are reeling from this latest accident. The current fear amongst resource managers is that like last year, there will be NO large fixed wing airtankers in service this year, other than the currently contracted two CL-415's that will be a shared asset. It would be very surprising if you could find anyone in the Forest Service who would allow the contract to proceed - especially after last years actions and findings. There are previously scheduled congressional hearings next week to look at firefighting resources for the 2005 season, this may be the most critical review for the industry.

Aero-Union was in the process of being sold. I don't know if the deal had closed prior to this accident, but there is much at stake for this company.

A story today, reveals another aspect of this tragedy.

Condolences to all family members and colleagues at Aero Union.


Pilot killed Wednesday suffered tragedy when brother, also a pilot, perished in 1995 wreck

By GREG WELTER Staff Writer

Paul Cockrell, the air tanker pilot killed Wednesday in a crash near the Lassen National Forest, lost a brother in an air tanker crash in 1995.

At the time of their deaths, both men were flying for Aero Union Corporation of Chico.

According to a story in the Los Angeles Times, Gary Cockrell of Paso Robles was piloting a four-engine DC-4 and dropping retardant on a fire near Anza-Borrego State Park when his craft collided with a small spotter plane.

Cockrell, his co-pilot Lisa Netsch of Hemet, and the pilot of the Beechcraft spotter plane, Michael Smith of Hesperia, all perished.

Witnesses said the spotter plane appeared to hit the top of the air tanker, then clipped off its tail. Cockrell reportedly tried to keep the plane in the air long enough to steer it away from heavily populated areas.

Even so, the crash touched off a massive explosion and caused two homes to catch fire. Residents of one narrowly escaped with their lives.
Wednesday's crash sparked a wildland fire near the Ishi Wilderness that burned about two acres.

The 1995 crash raised questions about how two experienced pilots, trained to handle the difficult flying conditions of firefighting, could have collided in clear weather.

Until Wednesday, the crash 10 years ago was the most recent involving an Aero Union plane.

[4HolerPoler]

Quite why this thread was moved to this forum I don't know - overzealous house-cleaning by one of my fellow mods. I'd be very happy to change the name of this forum to "Biz Jets, Ag Flying, Fire Bombers & GA" but it won't fit on the page.

Sad news - condolences to all concerned and a welcome to all fire bombers who'd like to view this forum as their home.

4HP

[Cyclic Hotline]

Seems that two contrasting viewpoints are being reported. One considers the likelihood of no tankers, and the other the opposite!

Tanker crash will likely ground fleet

Forest Service seeks planes before start of summer fire season
By Steve Geissinger, SACRAMENTO BUREAU

SACRAMENTO — Officials conceded Friday the crash of another federal firefighting plane will likely leave the U.S. Forest Service without an air-tanker fleet to fight western wildfires, broadening calls to accept Russia's offer to lend unique jet super-tankers as replacements.

Federal officials told the Oakland Tribune that if the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the Wednesday evening crash, finds it was due to a flaw common to all other P-3 Orions, the remaining six federally owned tankers would be grounded.

California owns a fleet of small, turboprop tankers that may be trimmed due to budget cuts. But the state's tankers can carry only 1,200 gallons to fight wildfires that ravage the state during the dry summer season.

The P-3 was one of only seven Orions left that can carry about 3,000 gallons of fire retardant, out of a worn-out federal military-surplus fleet.

Two dozen other federal tankers of other types were grounded last year after structural flaws led to two planes breaking up in mid-air during drops. The remaining three,under contract to the Forest Service, are too dangerous to fly over residential areas.

"This is a very important issue," said NTSB Chairman Ellen Engleman Conners. "You have people whose jobs it is to save lives, and we don't want their lives at risk."

U.S. Forest Service spokeswoman Rose Davis said "it's a difficult place to be" until the NTSB finds a cause in the crash. A highly experienced crew was flying the P-3 on a routine retardant-drop training mission over familiar territory near Chico in Northern California.

"We don't know what the implications of this will be," said Dave Dash, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Land Management.

Or, the other viewpoint.



Officials believe air tankers won't be grounded

By Brian Melley

ASSOCIATED PRESS


SACRAMENTO - National forest officials were optimistic Friday that early findings in the fatal crash of an air tanker in Northern California would not ground the federal firefighting air fleet this summer, a spokesman said.

An initial review of the fiery crash that killed three pilots Wednesday in the rugged mountains of the Lassen National Forest found all the wreckage within a two-acre burn zone, said Paul Schlamm, a National Transportation Safety Board spokesman.

That observation renewed confidence in plans by federal firefighting officials to return more air tankers to the skies for the West's upcoming wildland fire season, said Matt Mathes, a U.S. Forest Service spokesman.

"At first glance, it sounds as if there was not a structural problem in the air," Mathes said. "This is certainly a promising development. We're going to wait for more information as the investigation proceeds, but we are cautiously optimistic."

Last May, the U.S. Forest Service and the Department of the Interior terminated contracts for 33 large air tankers, citing concerns with public safety after two different types of air tankers broke up in midair in 2002.

But the government agreed to reinstate some planes after extensive testing at the urging of air tanker contractors led by Aero Union Corp. of Chico, which owned the plane that crashed Wednesday and had a good safety record.

The plane, a P-3 Orion built for the Navy in 1966 and flown by an experienced crew, was one of 10 air tankers approved for federal firefighting contracts Monday.

"We put that particular plane through two kinds of tests," said Mathes. "It has passed every single test we can give it."

Air tankers are a small part of the federal firefighting air fleet, but are considered indispensable by Western lawmakers who have criticized previous groundings and lobbied hard to bring them back into service during the fire season.

More and more, they are being displaced by a much larger fleet of helicopters, which can be more effective, Mathes said.

Helicopters can accurately drop water or fire retardant directly on targets, they don't have to land to refill and their focused drop can penetrate deeper into forests with greater force.

There are 700 helicopters in the federal fleet, including some that can carry 3,000 gallons of water or fire retardant, the same payload as the largest tankers.

"What's being lost in all this is that air tankers don't put fires out," Mathes said. "What they do is they slow the fire down so the men and women on the ground can get a handle on the fire and get a line around it."

More than a dozen federal investigators worked at the scene of the crash 120 miles north of Sacramento and reviewed pilot logs and maintenance records at the Chico airport, where the plane had successfully returned from six missions earlier in the day Wednesday.

The safety board did not reach any early conclusions and had not ruled anything out, Schlamm said.

The Aero Union plane left the airport with 2,500 gallons of water, but it was not clear if it had dropped the water before the crash, he said. In earlier statements, the safety board said the plane crashed immediately after dropping its load.

Investigators spent the day documenting and diagramming the wreckage area, looking for the so-called four corners of the plane: the nose, tail and wing tips.

In the previous crashes that resulted in the grounding of the tanker fleet, the planes broke apart in midflight, leaving the wings far from the rest of the wreckage.

The company said the crew members killed were all experienced pilots: Brian Bruns, 45, of Minden, Nev.; Paul Cockrell, 52, of Fresno; and Thomas Lynch, 41, of Redding. Lynch was the company's chief pilot.

Lynch's wife, Lori, said she worried about her husband from the day she met him and even tried to persuade him to do something else.

"He wanted to be out there on the runways and close to that fire," Lori Lynch told the Redding Record Searchlight newspaper. "Once you get that in your blood, you can't get it out."

Cockrell's brother, Gary Cockrell, was killed piloting an Aero Union air tanker 10 years ago in a collision with a Forest Service plane as they both prepared to land at a Southern California airport after fighting a state park fire. Three pilots were killed in the crash, which was the last tragedy involving Aero Union.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Feds face suit over '02 air tanker crash

By The Associated Press

Casper, Wyo. - Family members of two men killed in a 2002 plane crash while fighting the Big Elk fire near Estes Park have sued six federal agencies, saying the agencies allowed lax airplane maintenance.

The amended lawsuit added the Agriculture, Interior and Transportation departments, the Bureau of Land Management, the Federal Aviation Administration and the U.S. Forest Service, according to U.S. District Court records. Hawkins & Powers Aviation Inc. already had been named as a defendant.

The lawsuit says federal agencies saved money by relying for decades on private contractors, and encouraged those contractors to fly older aircraft.

"All of these policies, and many others, demonstrate that the U.S. Forest Service and its employees were completely responsible for updating the maintenance schedules of the P4Y-2 as that plane underwent extensive (and improper) modifications in order to serve as a firefighting bombardier aircraft," the lawsuit said.

As of Friday, the federal government had not yet responded to the lawsuit. Hawkins & Powers has denied responsibility in previous court filings.

Pilot Rich Schwartz, of Ulm, Mont., and co-pilot Milton Stollak, of Cathedral City, Calif., died July 18, 2002, when the left wing fell off their plane, igniting fuel and sending the plane crashing to the ground.

Federal air safety inspectors determined an 18-inch crack in a wing support caused the crash.

[Ignition Override]

If the two c0ckrell brothers' parents are still around, my deepest condolences first to them, along with the other family members.

Concerning compund family tragedies, were not a father and son both killed in seperate C-130 crashes in Africa, due to terrorist missiles?

Those Lockheed turboprops are certainly complex machines, and I'm wondering if the P-3 had a propeller malfunction (pitch control, autofeather, even prop oil...), especially at a lower speed. Navy P-3 pilots were required to learn a chart four squares wide, by eight squares long, all with different engine/prop malfunctions, in case they were far over water and something went wrong when patrolling with two engines and restarting the other two etc. Were they training in an airport traffic pattern or dropping chemicals?

Do those planes now all have a standby horizon? A Zantop Electra (under the "grandfather" policy) met with disaster after an electrical malfunction was reportedly not handled properly and both horizons failed in IMC. For decades, USAF C-130s had no standby horizon. I know a pilot who had two situations where a total electrical failure happened, inexplicably, in night IMC-they were quite fortunate to have had very experienced and busy Flight Engineers, who saved their lives! It was my father at the pilot controls.