10 killed in Caravan crash
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Here's a RADAR Pix of the US North East and an IR PIX about 15 mins before T/O:
http://www.geocities.com/johnwdutcher/17Jan04.htm
METAR for the Destination Windsor, ON:
CYQG 172100Z 18006KT 1 3/4SM -SN OVC008 M05/M07 A2982 RMK SN2SC6 SLP109
CYQG 172200Z 20005KT 1 1/2SM -SN -FZRA BR OVC005 M05/M06 A2979 RMK ST8 SLP100
http://www.geocities.com/johnwdutcher/17Jan04.htm
METAR for the Destination Windsor, ON:
CYQG 172100Z 18006KT 1 3/4SM -SN OVC008 M05/M07 A2982 RMK SN2SC6 SLP109
CYQG 172200Z 20005KT 1 1/2SM -SN -FZRA BR OVC005 M05/M06 A2979 RMK ST8 SLP100
Two of those bloody things were lost due to icing in one night back in January 1990 in upstate New York and Vermont. In the years just prior to that I had flown freight for a company that operated Caravans along with other types. I was flying the Navajo at the time and heard no end of horror stories from guys on the Caravan in regard to icing.
That airplane had a terrible reputation in regard to ice 14 years ago, and I don't know as anything has changed. Why tempt fate? The Caravan will take you to the scene of the accident in regard to ice.
That airplane had a terrible reputation in regard to ice 14 years ago, and I don't know as anything has changed. Why tempt fate? The Caravan will take you to the scene of the accident in regard to ice.
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Question for those who indeed think that single engine turbopropellor ops are 'OK' for public/exec transport.
IF you were going to invest $2million in an exec aircraft, would you purchase a (pre-owned) PC-12, or a BE200 KingAir.
Single engine fails....folks DIE, if you only have one powerplant.
Nearly always.
IF you were going to invest $2million in an exec aircraft, would you purchase a (pre-owned) PC-12, or a BE200 KingAir.
Single engine fails....folks DIE, if you only have one powerplant.
Nearly always.
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Problems with PT6s and C208s
The model of PT6 used in the Caravan (C208), from what I was told by an engineer friend who works on them, has a problem with the P3 valve. When it fails the engine goes to idle power. It doesn't actually fail, but it isn't doing you much good either. This is what caused the crash at Warri, Nigeria, supposedly, when the pilot parked it in a swamp just short of the airstrip.
And from what a friend who flies Caravans told me, the aircraft ends up dragging around a lot of ice due to its construction. I guess the stuff sticks to all the sticky-outie bits that aren't de-iced, causing so much drag that the poor old thing finally cannot hold itself up. I remember reading about a few FedEx crashes in heavy icing where it certainly sounded as if the thing iced up in the cruise.
As to what happened in this crash, well, who knows, yet! All this second-guessing is rather pointless. Did it crash on take-off (engine failure or perhaps trying to fly with ice present), on approach (engine failure or flying too slow with ice accumulation) or....
About the only screw-up you wouldn't have to worry about in this aircraft is a gear-up landing. Everything else is up for grabs.
Who knows what factors went into this pilot's assessment of doing the trip? I would hazard a guess that Plan A was not to crash, screaming, into Lake Erie so that it would seem that he has, in some measure, failed. Why should we take this apparent failure as an open invitation to burst into print on this forum with all sorts of speculation about what happened? Isn't that a bit ghoulish?
I remember very well a trip when I almost hung a Cessna 441 in the high-tension wires trying to get into what turned out to be completely the wrong airstrip in very thick dust haze. After landing I had time to think how much fun the local Forum of Wise (after the fact) Elders would have had with that one! That has always acted as a brake on outing my natural feelings of being the greatest pilot since Lindbergh.
And from what a friend who flies Caravans told me, the aircraft ends up dragging around a lot of ice due to its construction. I guess the stuff sticks to all the sticky-outie bits that aren't de-iced, causing so much drag that the poor old thing finally cannot hold itself up. I remember reading about a few FedEx crashes in heavy icing where it certainly sounded as if the thing iced up in the cruise.
As to what happened in this crash, well, who knows, yet! All this second-guessing is rather pointless. Did it crash on take-off (engine failure or perhaps trying to fly with ice present), on approach (engine failure or flying too slow with ice accumulation) or....
About the only screw-up you wouldn't have to worry about in this aircraft is a gear-up landing. Everything else is up for grabs.
Who knows what factors went into this pilot's assessment of doing the trip? I would hazard a guess that Plan A was not to crash, screaming, into Lake Erie so that it would seem that he has, in some measure, failed. Why should we take this apparent failure as an open invitation to burst into print on this forum with all sorts of speculation about what happened? Isn't that a bit ghoulish?
I remember very well a trip when I almost hung a Cessna 441 in the high-tension wires trying to get into what turned out to be completely the wrong airstrip in very thick dust haze. After landing I had time to think how much fun the local Forum of Wise (after the fact) Elders would have had with that one! That has always acted as a brake on outing my natural feelings of being the greatest pilot since Lindbergh.
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411A, the PC-12 for instance is not a death sentence without an operating engine.
A PC-12 flown by Kellner in Newfoundland lost its engine and despite a deck stacked against it (read the report if you can locate it), a power-off landing in a swamp resulted in no injuries, that is until a passenger got too excited trying to get out.
2 engines don't necessarily make you safer.
I'd take the PC-12 any day.
A PC-12 flown by Kellner in Newfoundland lost its engine and despite a deck stacked against it (read the report if you can locate it), a power-off landing in a swamp resulted in no injuries, that is until a passenger got too excited trying to get out.
2 engines don't necessarily make you safer.
I'd take the PC-12 any day.
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Having flown the Caravan in winter, I remember the icing problems very well. The problem as I see it is that boots will help you for a short time, while you pass through the icing conditions. The Caravan is limited in it's abillity to climb out of the icing conditions, especially if it's close to max weight, and you do not want to linger in icing for a long time with this aircraft. The Ice builds up everywhere, and as it builds it slows you down, increasing your a.o.a, ultimately building ice on the wings. I remember thinking of the boots as emergency equipment. Don't get me wrong though, I think the Caravan is a great airplane for certain operations, I just don't believe that smacking a couple of boots on it qualifies it for flying into known icing. As far as the engine being the problem, I'm not so sure. The airplane is equipped with an emergency powerlever, which should be able to deal with the above mentioned problem. (Mind you it's been many years since I flew the Caravan, so I might be wrong). Let's hope the Accident investigation sheds a light on the cause of the crash.
My thoughts go out to the victims of this tragedy.
O
My thoughts go out to the victims of this tragedy.
O
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Ice on wings before takeoff
Passenger feared icy conditions
By GLORIA GALLOWAY AND JOE FRIESEN
UPDATED AT 10:13 AM EST Monday, Jan. 19, 2004
TORONTO and KINGSVILLE, ONT. -- Larry Janik was apparently nervous as he and seven friends prepared to board the Cessna Caravan that would take them back to the mainland after two days of hunting on Pelee Island.
>>There was ice on the wings of the turbo-prop plane and he asked aloud whether they should be braving the trip under such conditions.<<
But Caravans are workhorses, and are equipped to handle ice. So Mr. Janik's reservations, which were overheard by Ford Crawford, the island resident who had taken the eight men hunting before dropping them at the small airport, were not shared by pilot Wayne Price
For the rest of the story go to:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ont/TopStories
By GLORIA GALLOWAY AND JOE FRIESEN
UPDATED AT 10:13 AM EST Monday, Jan. 19, 2004
TORONTO and KINGSVILLE, ONT. -- Larry Janik was apparently nervous as he and seven friends prepared to board the Cessna Caravan that would take them back to the mainland after two days of hunting on Pelee Island.
>>There was ice on the wings of the turbo-prop plane and he asked aloud whether they should be braving the trip under such conditions.<<
But Caravans are workhorses, and are equipped to handle ice. So Mr. Janik's reservations, which were overheard by Ford Crawford, the island resident who had taken the eight men hunting before dropping them at the small airport, were not shared by pilot Wayne Price
For the rest of the story go to:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ont/TopStories
..Caravans are equipped to handle ice. Technically that is a correct statement. In actual fact, the de-icing equipment on the airplane would probably get you out of trouble if you were to blunder into icing conditions. Launching into known ice is something else entirely.
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Crash pilot from GTA
Died with girlfriend, 8 hunters
By HIMANI EDIRIWEERA AND PATRICK MALONEY, TORONTO SUN
A Toronto-area pilot and his girlfriend were among 10 people who died when a plane crashed into the icy waters off Pelee Island. Wayne Price, 33, and his girlfriend, Jamie Levine, 28, of Los Angeles, died when a Cessna Caravan 208B, owned by a Mississauga charter airline, crashed into Lake Erie on Saturday shortly after takeoff.
A U.S.-Canadian effort begins this morning to recover the bodies and plane, which skidded along the ice and sank in eight metres of water.
The passengers were all hunters from southwestern Ontario. Among them were a top surgeon, a police sergeant and a union leader,
"This is a huge loss to the community. He is just so young," said Chris Sexsmith, a former neighbour of Price in Richmond Hill. "He was such a great guy with a great sense of humour."
He said Price moved out of his bungalow in August but he didn't know where he went. Price's phone number, however, was switched to a Toronto exchange.
'ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE'
"I feel absolutely horrible. He didn't have a nasty bone in his body," Sexsmith said.
The ill-fated trip began at 4:40 p.m. Saturday when the plane, owned by Georgian Express, left Pelee Island, headed for Windsor. Minutes later Price made a frantic radio call to Windsor; then contact was lost.
Island resident Dave Bracken was walking his dog on the shoreline.
"It sounded like the plane was having some troubles for about 10 seconds and then I heard a bang, like something going into the ice," he told CBC Newsworld.
WELL-KNOWN DOCTOR
The plane crashed half a kilometre from the island, the most southerly point in Canada and a popular spot for pheasant and rabbit hunters in the winter.
The hunters aboard were Dr. Jim Allen, 51, of Mitchell's Bay, Staff Sgt. Tom Reeve, 49, his brother Ted Reeve, 53, and Bob Brisco, 46, all of Chatham, Fred Freitas, 39, and Larry Janik, 49, both of Kingsville, and Ronald Spencler, 54, and Walter Sadowski, 49, both of Windsor.
Tom Reeve was a popular police officer in Chatham. With his brother and Allen, a well-known orthopedic surgeon, the trio ran St. Clair Sports Fishing out of Mitchell's Bay.
Linda Caldwell, an official with the Victorian Order of Nurses, said Allen was considered one of the top surgeons in his field in Canada.
Ted Reeve served as the CAW union rep at the Chatham International Truck and Engine plant.
Sadowski had a hunting dog with him on the plane.
"He died with his boots on and he died with his dog. There are a lot worse ways to go," his brother Bill told a CityTV station.
Georgian Express president Paul Mulrooney said he had no idea what brought down the plane and will leave that to the OPP and Transportation Safety Board to decide.
Price was an experienced pilot who'd flown the route many times.
A Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker was expected to arrive last night from Sault Ste. Marie. It will serve as a platform for the OPP dive unit coming from Gravenhurst.
Died with girlfriend, 8 hunters
By HIMANI EDIRIWEERA AND PATRICK MALONEY, TORONTO SUN
A Toronto-area pilot and his girlfriend were among 10 people who died when a plane crashed into the icy waters off Pelee Island. Wayne Price, 33, and his girlfriend, Jamie Levine, 28, of Los Angeles, died when a Cessna Caravan 208B, owned by a Mississauga charter airline, crashed into Lake Erie on Saturday shortly after takeoff.
A U.S.-Canadian effort begins this morning to recover the bodies and plane, which skidded along the ice and sank in eight metres of water.
The passengers were all hunters from southwestern Ontario. Among them were a top surgeon, a police sergeant and a union leader,
"This is a huge loss to the community. He is just so young," said Chris Sexsmith, a former neighbour of Price in Richmond Hill. "He was such a great guy with a great sense of humour."
He said Price moved out of his bungalow in August but he didn't know where he went. Price's phone number, however, was switched to a Toronto exchange.
'ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE'
"I feel absolutely horrible. He didn't have a nasty bone in his body," Sexsmith said.
The ill-fated trip began at 4:40 p.m. Saturday when the plane, owned by Georgian Express, left Pelee Island, headed for Windsor. Minutes later Price made a frantic radio call to Windsor; then contact was lost.
Island resident Dave Bracken was walking his dog on the shoreline.
"It sounded like the plane was having some troubles for about 10 seconds and then I heard a bang, like something going into the ice," he told CBC Newsworld.
WELL-KNOWN DOCTOR
The plane crashed half a kilometre from the island, the most southerly point in Canada and a popular spot for pheasant and rabbit hunters in the winter.
The hunters aboard were Dr. Jim Allen, 51, of Mitchell's Bay, Staff Sgt. Tom Reeve, 49, his brother Ted Reeve, 53, and Bob Brisco, 46, all of Chatham, Fred Freitas, 39, and Larry Janik, 49, both of Kingsville, and Ronald Spencler, 54, and Walter Sadowski, 49, both of Windsor.
Tom Reeve was a popular police officer in Chatham. With his brother and Allen, a well-known orthopedic surgeon, the trio ran St. Clair Sports Fishing out of Mitchell's Bay.
Linda Caldwell, an official with the Victorian Order of Nurses, said Allen was considered one of the top surgeons in his field in Canada.
Ted Reeve served as the CAW union rep at the Chatham International Truck and Engine plant.
Sadowski had a hunting dog with him on the plane.
"He died with his boots on and he died with his dog. There are a lot worse ways to go," his brother Bill told a CityTV station.
Georgian Express president Paul Mulrooney said he had no idea what brought down the plane and will leave that to the OPP and Transportation Safety Board to decide.
Price was an experienced pilot who'd flown the route many times.
A Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker was expected to arrive last night from Sault Ste. Marie. It will serve as a platform for the OPP dive unit coming from Gravenhurst.
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>>There was ice on the wings of the turbo-prop plane and he asked aloud whether they should be braving the trip under such conditions.<<
Whether it is certified for flight into known icing or not, it certainly ain't certified to take-off with ice on the wings.
There is an erie similarity with the story told in this month's Flyer Mag, under the "That Worst Day" series, talking of a C404 taking off carrying some ice, and claiming to be true.
Timothy
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quote
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I'd take the PC-12 any day.
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Why would anyone make a choice like this, the safety record for a twin engine turbo-prop speaks for itself.
D L
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I'd take the PC-12 any day.
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Why would anyone make a choice like this, the safety record for a twin engine turbo-prop speaks for itself.
D L
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I made the post on the Canada forum. It is 3 hull losses now, and the other 2 were both related to ice. Of course we don't know about this one yet.
In the first case involving the fatality in Barrie, it would appear that there was a loss of control, possibly because the transition from instruments to visual flying can be very difficult with ice on the windshield, the approach was abbreviated (a full procedure was not flown over the lake) and possible accelerated stall issues. (with ice on the wing, the behaviour can be different.) What I remember most about this accident was that a friend told me that they were getting the boxes out of the back of the plane while the pilot was still inside the inverted wreck. The show must go on. Most disrespectful in my opinion.
In the second case, at North Bay, Ontario, the plane was crewed by two people. The captain had been to the Flight Safety course and the simulator simulated a new caravan. The accident airplane was old and probably a bit 'tired', so unlikely to show similar performance. The wind was out of the West, and blows uphill after coming over the lake. (Nipissing) A stupid place for an airport and the ILS is facing East. The runway is very long though, so the best method to get in if the weather was low was to take the tailwind (within limits). The pilot on this day first shot the VOR, flew right by the tower (might have been a little below on the missed!) and then tried an abbreviated approach to the ILS. When he broke out above the runway, he chopped the power, and the thing dropped out from underneath him. The plane hit so hard that it broke in half, and a wing (left I think) snapped off downwards. Obviously not good for the spine. Luckily nobody was killed.
Now this.
This pilot must have been to Flight safety to be allowed to carry pax in the Caravan, and would have had lots of experience with ice in the machine, flying freight all over Ontario. My personal guess is that this was not a straightforward 'ice causes loss of lift' type of accident. Of course we will not know until the report, if ever.
Just some background as I see it, and my opinion. Not any kind of authoritative accident report.
It is a very sad time, and I am sure that all pilots feel for the families of the pilot and the passengers.
In the first case involving the fatality in Barrie, it would appear that there was a loss of control, possibly because the transition from instruments to visual flying can be very difficult with ice on the windshield, the approach was abbreviated (a full procedure was not flown over the lake) and possible accelerated stall issues. (with ice on the wing, the behaviour can be different.) What I remember most about this accident was that a friend told me that they were getting the boxes out of the back of the plane while the pilot was still inside the inverted wreck. The show must go on. Most disrespectful in my opinion.
In the second case, at North Bay, Ontario, the plane was crewed by two people. The captain had been to the Flight Safety course and the simulator simulated a new caravan. The accident airplane was old and probably a bit 'tired', so unlikely to show similar performance. The wind was out of the West, and blows uphill after coming over the lake. (Nipissing) A stupid place for an airport and the ILS is facing East. The runway is very long though, so the best method to get in if the weather was low was to take the tailwind (within limits). The pilot on this day first shot the VOR, flew right by the tower (might have been a little below on the missed!) and then tried an abbreviated approach to the ILS. When he broke out above the runway, he chopped the power, and the thing dropped out from underneath him. The plane hit so hard that it broke in half, and a wing (left I think) snapped off downwards. Obviously not good for the spine. Luckily nobody was killed.
Now this.
This pilot must have been to Flight safety to be allowed to carry pax in the Caravan, and would have had lots of experience with ice in the machine, flying freight all over Ontario. My personal guess is that this was not a straightforward 'ice causes loss of lift' type of accident. Of course we will not know until the report, if ever.
Just some background as I see it, and my opinion. Not any kind of authoritative accident report.
It is a very sad time, and I am sure that all pilots feel for the families of the pilot and the passengers.
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PT 6 failure modes
That little lever in the Caravan overrides a failure of the Fuel Control Unit (FCU) from what I remember. I don't think it can cope with a P3 valve problem.
I had a P3 valve problem in a Twin Otter (DHC6-300) once, when the membrane in the valve split. One could see a 'split' in the T5 temps between the two engines so that I just returned to base after a short flight with the engine still developing power. I guess if I had been in the air longer perhaps then I would have had to shut the engine down.
I believe they are coping with the problem in the Caravan PT6 engine by changing the valves much earlier than normal. Obviously, since the aircraft are still flying, they have come up with some sort of fix that satisfies the regulators. And from what I have read here it does not sound as though the problem that led to this crash was an engine problem.
I always used to prefer two or more engines, despite how the statistics read. But a clapped-out Aztec vs. a shiny new Caravan? Hmmm. On the other hand, no sooner were the statistics out in support of singles in IFR than there was a row of engine failure related accidents and incidents. It's a tough call.
I had a P3 valve problem in a Twin Otter (DHC6-300) once, when the membrane in the valve split. One could see a 'split' in the T5 temps between the two engines so that I just returned to base after a short flight with the engine still developing power. I guess if I had been in the air longer perhaps then I would have had to shut the engine down.
I believe they are coping with the problem in the Caravan PT6 engine by changing the valves much earlier than normal. Obviously, since the aircraft are still flying, they have come up with some sort of fix that satisfies the regulators. And from what I have read here it does not sound as though the problem that led to this crash was an engine problem.
I always used to prefer two or more engines, despite how the statistics read. But a clapped-out Aztec vs. a shiny new Caravan? Hmmm. On the other hand, no sooner were the statistics out in support of singles in IFR than there was a row of engine failure related accidents and incidents. It's a tough call.
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Presumably there were at least 8 guns on the plane. Hmmm.
To enter the 'single v. twin' debate, I would say that the strength of the Caravan in which the 2 survived probably saved them. A navajoke would have been smashed to pieces in that instance. Because they are singles, they are required to be much more crashworthy. This means that if you ever get an engine failure, as long as you stay greasy side down and stay out of the water, you will probably be ok. I haven't seen anyone criticising the absolutely terrible accident record of Navajo's etc. And what about fatigue at air taxi operations.
Thes issues are always more complicated than they appear. You might find, for example only, that this latest incident was caused by assymetric flap retraction, or an elevator jam, or a tail stall on flaps retraction, or birdstrike or or or or.
Just some stuff to think about.
To enter the 'single v. twin' debate, I would say that the strength of the Caravan in which the 2 survived probably saved them. A navajoke would have been smashed to pieces in that instance. Because they are singles, they are required to be much more crashworthy. This means that if you ever get an engine failure, as long as you stay greasy side down and stay out of the water, you will probably be ok. I haven't seen anyone criticising the absolutely terrible accident record of Navajo's etc. And what about fatigue at air taxi operations.
Thes issues are always more complicated than they appear. You might find, for example only, that this latest incident was caused by assymetric flap retraction, or an elevator jam, or a tail stall on flaps retraction, or birdstrike or or or or.
Just some stuff to think about.
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HT,
Yes, the PC-12 is a mighty fine looking aeroplane, and can carry a lot, but if I recall correctly has had a rather poor reputation in the engine reliability department. Many of the accidents have been fatal.
This is not to say of course that twin-turbopropeller aircraft can not have similar results, especially if mis-handled with a failed engine.
PC-12 as a freighter, good idea. To carry loads of pax around on a regular basis...approach with caution, especially IMC, IMHO.
Yes, the PC-12 is a mighty fine looking aeroplane, and can carry a lot, but if I recall correctly has had a rather poor reputation in the engine reliability department. Many of the accidents have been fatal.
This is not to say of course that twin-turbopropeller aircraft can not have similar results, especially if mis-handled with a failed engine.
PC-12 as a freighter, good idea. To carry loads of pax around on a regular basis...approach with caution, especially IMC, IMHO.
Freezing Rain at time of Takeoff
Today's Toronto Sun reports the Pelee Island mayor observing freezing rain at the time of takeoff.
I hate to think of the accumulation on the entire upper wing surface while the a/c was on the ground which would be hard to observe given the height of the wing from the ground.
I hate to think of the accumulation on the entire upper wing surface while the a/c was on the ground which would be hard to observe given the height of the wing from the ground.